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Super Deep Bass

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by Whitbass, Apr 15, 2010.

  1. Whitbass


    Jan 22, 2010
    Hello my fine TBers...:D
    I have a couple different bass rigs; however my primary rig is a Ken Smith CR5MW, Markbass LMII, and Bergantino AE410, sitting on a Great-Gramma Pad. I truly dig super deep bass tone. I would like to hear your thoughts on what you believe I might do to improve my tone in this direction? For example, if you were to recommend one thing that would result in the most significant improvement toward achieving super-low, thunderous, yet focused bass tone, I would love to hear it. I am not seeking a big wide boom, but a super-deep, focused, yet muscular sort of tone down to the B-string. I don't typically care for a lot of sizzle up top, but dig a good portion of definition in my tone. I feel that I have pretty good tone now, but looking to take it to a new level....and looking for suggestions based on experiences you may have. The EQ on the LMII is close to flat with slight boosts in the lows and low mids, and slight cuts to highs and high-mids. VPF and VLE basically off... I dig the bridge p/u tone and pan more in that direction. The Smith bass EQ has a very slight boost of lows and mids, with highs slightly cut. If you feel you have my answer or can shed some light on the subject for me, please be so kind to share...
    For example, the link to follow would be a good reference as to the sort of tone I am after......in some ways I am close, but maybe not quite where I want to be tonally

    Ric Fierabracci on bass

    I know everything in the signal chain matters, and ultimately everything in the chain determines the result, but there has to be a limited number of factors that define one's signature tone or at least some particular character of one's tone. In other words, there must be some limited number of constants that are most responsible for this type of super deep, focused, yet muscular tone..........
    I am interested in suggestions with regard to tweaks to my current gear, additions, or changes to the gear I am currently using............
  2. should be able to get there with your gear, try cranking the low mids.
  3. GK?
  4. duderasta


    Feb 25, 2010
    Tampa, FL
    First thing I would do if the lows sound thin is ditch the isolation pad, which is generally to tame boomy lows
  5. craig.p


    Sep 28, 2008
    New Hampshire
    I don't have any specific recommendations other than getting a cab to cover the frequency range you're interested in. The AE410 won't do it. Its low-end spec is 40 Hz but there's no +/-dB spec so we have to assume it's down a lot at 40 (E string). Doesn't bode well for low B. Cranking in more bass may do nothing more than flap the cones, but it'll depend on whether or not at/around 32 Hz the cab has already allowed the cones to unload. Now I know someone will come in and say "but bass is mostly harmonics" but please remember this guy wants "super deep, focused, and muscular" and that means fundamentals. I offer as an example the Carvin TRX218N, which has a -3dB point of 30 Hz. If you want wallop and authority at the low end, this one or something similar will give it to you. You'll still get at least some harmonics because the upper -3dB point is 1500 Hz.

    Also in the effects loop consider a subsonic filter with a steep slope with a knee somewhere around 25 Hz, which will allow you to crank in more bass safely and devote all output current to usable/audible "work." That is if that amp has an effects loop.

    Lots of ways to go, but FOCUS on the fundamentals -- don't make them just an incidental concern, e.g. "the cab 'should' go low enough." That won't cut it.
  6. Alex1984


    Jan 16, 2010
    Most amps should deliver quite well, not necessarily the tone, but the sheer amount of bass. I'd say add another 410 if you think one isn't enough.

    This might be inappropriate for this board, but perhaps changing the guitar, pickups/electronics would help. Or possibly some effects (Aphex Big Bottom/BBE)?
  7. Whitbass


    Jan 22, 2010
    thanks to all thus far...I will further investigate these suggestions....
    concerning GK, I used it before, changed to LMII, also tried their cabs.....all good stuff, but didn't float my boat at the time........but who knows now........
    are you recommending GK amps, cabs, or both?
    particular models in mind?

    as far as the 40hz spec on the AE410.....Fierrabracci's Bag End cabs, for example, are spec'd 40Hz and 50Hz, and his tone is about as good as I've heard, even down low.....so I'm not sure about the frequency range being my issue.....but maybe so......

    I don't think I'm miles away from my tonal destination, but want deeper tone, and more meat as well

    nonetheless, I am grateful for everyone's time and comments and hope you and others keep bringing in the suggestions and discussion points.....
    please accept my return comments in the friendly context intended, and feel free to challenge any of my thoughts, comments, etc......as I am indeed asking......

    bring it on my friends...and thanks again :D
  8. Most of those cab specs are pretty useless. The AE410 is very tight down low, and if anything a bit attenuated in the deep low end. I like that (nothing worse than boom in a live mix), but if you want super deep bass, that is one of the last cabs I would own. That cab is all about upper bass, low mid punch (my favorite cab). It has plenty of real bass, but again, almost everyone describes it as 'tight' in the low end (which is the opposite of 'deep').

    The gramma pad will only have any sort of impact on a hollow wooden stage, so that's a non issue. In most rooms, it is a waste of schlepp, but it will never hurt anything.

    The LMII extends nicely in the low end (more than most amps), but the hi pass filter is in no way set for uber deep low end boom. Heads that have a much more open low end are the old SWR SM400 (stupid low end... down to 20hz), the EA iAmp800, the TecAmp Puma500, and the GK MB500). All these heads seem to allow the bass to go way down into that 30hz area, for better or worse (you can really see the speakers piston)

    There are much deeper voiced 410's (Epifani UL, Ampeg HL410.. I think that's the name, etc.). However, be careful what you ask for.

    Of course, the Acme cabs are the king of deep low end. Again, hate them in most mixes myself, but if you want to go down to almost the open B fundamental, they will do it.

    IMO and IME!
  9. +++1 !

    I must agree with everything Ken said. Unlike him, however, I like the Acmes, a lot. They are the champions of deep low-end reproduction. Though not everyone agrees, IMO you need to match them with power on the high side of the amounts recommended to take full advantage of their capabilities. If you buy Acmes for their low end reproduction, I don't understand using an amp that is straining, clipping, distorting, etc. to give it to you.
  10. stflbn


    May 10, 2007
    Personally, I would not consider Ric's tone a Super Deep Bass tone. When I saw Super Deep Bass Tone on this thread I expected a link to a Reggea video or something.

    Ric's tone on this link is about precisely the tone I shoot for most times, and a tone I feel my RH450 and TC Cabinets excel at.

    I think Kjung will likely agree with the TC's nailing this type of tone.

  11. marklaforest


    Feb 5, 2010
    +1. When you're looking for extremes in sound one of the most cost efficient ways to do it is play around with room set ups and positioning.

    Have you tried any of Ashdown's stuff? I had one a while ago, I think it was a Mag EVO 3, and I ended up returning it cause it was just too thick for my band. I'm talking juicy syrupy low end thick.
  12. Whitbass


    Jan 22, 2010
    wow, lots of great stuff coming in......many, many thanks..........
    .....maybe I should redefine deep in the context for what I mean.......as I think I am maybe asking in the wrong manner.....I know this may sound crazy...but when I say deep in this case, I mean deep that can be heard, not so much felt....I am after a really deep-voice that is audible, not the low frequencies we feel........in fact its likely low-mids I am after, just in a deeper, more muscular way........
    I really do not want to move more air really.......in fact I only add enough lows to give authoritative presence, but not much if at all beyond that........
    maybe I am after this Fierabracci Tone....which I guess to me is a well balanced, deep mid voiced, tight low end, rich tone.......
  13. Makes sense. I think I know exactly what you mean. The LMII is a great matchup with the AE410, but it is more smooth that the 'kick you in the chest' low mid, upper bass thump, and unfortunately, that low mid control centered way up at almost 400hz doesn't help much.

    The cab will definitely get you where you need to go though. I've had great luck, per the post above, with the RH450 and my AE410 to generate a more 'kick you in the chest' sort of wump versus the more smooth, refined tone of the LMII. I also like the F1/F500 with this cab quite a bit.. a bit louder, a bit more punchy and bit more low mid burpy than the LMII. You might be able to hear this in my LMII/F1 comparison clip on my Youtube channel.

    Keep that cab (unless again you want deep, deep low end). Mess around with a few different heads if you can.

  14. Whitbass


    Jan 22, 2010
    I really like the LMII vs where I've come from with other heads, but maybe its just the first amp to get me heading in the right direction....I greatly appreciate your time and the like. I guess burpy and punchy sounds about like what I want......a muscular wallop in the chest, with good definition and deeply voiced high-lows and mid lows, and just enough lows to fill in a place without getting out of hand down low......I don't want to thin out down low to the point its lame, but I think you got the idea of what I am after......pretty much the Ric F tone...

    the thing that is kind of crazy is Fierabracci uses a Fender Tube Pre, and assuming it has the standard mid-cut only passive Fender stack, not so sure where his mids are coming from....but I am not sure about that.......

    nonetheless....thanks again and thanks to all....I will check on other heads out when I can......and by all means Ken and others.....if you have other pointers/suggestions......they are most welcome......:hyper::D:D
  15. I agree with Ken's summation, however we disagree somewhat. I absolutely adore my B2s. I'd not use any other cabinet. Although I own four I mostly use just a pair vertically stacked. They are though not for everyone. I have found that giving each 350W of available power, the cabinets RMS rating, I have been able to play every gig, large or small, without any strain. My power currently comes from a Carvin DCM1000 with one 4Ω B2 per channel. Wishing to lighten my load I'm going to try them both through a Carvin BX1500.

  16. Hey Paul... +1 pure personal taste and tone goals. The Acme's are wonderful, and do just what Andy designed them to do. If that fits your tone goal, there ain't much better.
  17. Ric's tone in the link to my ears does not go deep, what I think it is- tight, focused, and very clear and articulate. It's all about the upper lows to low mids and a very balanced, and clear midrange with nice definition. I think the AE410 with the LMII is perfect for this situation and in fact I think the F1/F500 would be even better.
    Definitely wouldn't be looking to go deeper for this type of tone as in the clip.

    Does anyone know what type of amp/cabs he is playing through??
  18. Whitbass


    Jan 22, 2010
    I believe the basics are a Fender Tube Pre, Crown K2, Bag End Cabs usually consisting of 2x10 or 4x10, + 1x15, or some similar BE cab. Tends to go with Stainless Strings, and Bart pickups are sometimes loaded if not already stock...also seems to like the Pedulla T-Bass. He seems to get "his" tone with most any bass I've heard him play.
  19. groove pump

    groove pump

    Oct 24, 2006
    Can't help but think that you could try a much stronger "engine" to power your cab (or cabs). For the big tight low end, a rather decent power amp might give you some of the focus you're seeking in case you haven't tried it.

    I use a 1,400 watt power amp to drive my pair of mediocre 2x10's and while it gives me more power than I "need", I enjoy a more healthy clarity in my sound and I absolutely do not have anything in my preamp or power amp cranked way up. I play a rather simple passive J-bass without much sizzle (tweeters off) and no drop tuning, btw.

    Not suggesting that you run out and buy something, but if you get an opportunity to try running your cab with more juice, you might find something.
  20. jasper383


    Dec 5, 2004
    Durham NC
    Isn't favoring the bridge pickup on a Ken Smith bass going to prevent you from getting the "super low, thunderous" bass sound you are looking for, regardless of eq at the bass and amp?

    I have a Peavey Cirrus, which is similar tonewise to a Smith, and I have found it to be really bright and modern sounding.

    Maybe your choice of bass is keeping you from what you want.

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