SVT shredding Edens!!

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by IanAllison, Dec 6, 2007.

  1. IanAllison

    IanAllison Supporting Member

    May 27, 2006
    Question for you amp guys out there.

    I have a 70s SVT that I WANT to love. I have a matching 810 that is wonderful, but for gigs that I don't want to lug the fridge, I've tried using my Eden 410XLT and 210XLT cabs.

    The cone excursion with the Edens is OUT OF CONTROL. It seemed that even at moderate volumes, the SVT wanted to shoot the Eden cones right out the front of the grill!

    So . . . is this normal? Do you need a sealed cab with an SVT tube head to control cone excursion? It seems like you should be able to use an SVT with a ported/vented cab. I know guys that use SVTs with other Ampeg ported cabs with no worries.

    Is my amp jacked up or do I just need to man up and lug the fridge?!

  2. Gearhead17

    Gearhead17 Supporting Member

    May 4, 2006
    Mount Prospect, IL
    Cone Excursion with tube amps and sealed cabs....I have heard so much talk about this and I have physically tried it myself - Tube amps sound good on ported and sealed cabs. That's how I feel about it. Tube amps don't push ported cabs to the brink of destruction unless your tone dictate's that. Over excursion may be true in the scientific sense, but I have yet to witness it.

    Anyway, the XLT cabs have a specific growl to them even at the cleanest settings. The growl/punch is why they are so popular - along with their devastating volume - they cut through in a band situation in seconds. What are your EQ settings? If you have the bass maxed out, then there is a problem. What you may hear as cone overexcursion may just be the Eden cabs growling majorly at you. You are using a tube amp - they growl and coupled with 2 growly cabs - it's going to sound mean, no doubt!
  3. IanAllison

    IanAllison Supporting Member

    May 27, 2006
    This was different - I usually use a Demeter pre into a Stewart 2.1 power amp. I'm very familiar with the signature Eden sound, or "growl." With the SVT, and at loud, but not devistatingly loud volumes, the Edens were lurching and leaping around in their baskets - moreso than they do with the Dem/Stewart rig at a comprable volume. It was bizarre!

    EQ-wise, there was nothing too extreme happening - a little bass boost - maybe 4db tops and enough volume to compete with a rock drummer . . .

    It made me wonder if there was something amiss with my SVT. However, into the 810 it's wonderful and doesn't seem to threaten destruction!

    Does anyone else have experience with an SVT into ported cabs?
  4. xlows


    Oct 21, 2006
    When I had my Eden cabs, I often worried that I was going to make them explode. They sounded as good when I sold them as the day I bought them. I think if the sound is good to you, keep them and keep gigging them and you'll get used to it. Frankly, though, I sold mine because the weight difference between my stack and an SVT wasn't that huge. I recently bought an Epifani 212 from latinbass which is working out extremely well. It's funny that many of the same tonal characteristics I loved about the big, heavy tube setup are obtainable through the use of pedals for me.
  5. jellymax

    jellymax Don't fry any wooden fish Supporting Member

    Nov 29, 2006
    SF CA
    1 i'll bet that svt is punchier than the stewie, which IMO has to do with staying power.
    2 keep in mind your SVT was designed to operate 16 10inch speakers, hence the
    oversize transformers inside. you speaker wrenching torque.

    my svtII can hammer my 800w whappo jr if i up the lows too much. but by then,
    its extremely loud. the bass knob increases volume greatly, check it out.
    i have a feeling it could easily hammer 2 of those 800w cabs...
  6. those tubes add a lot of harmonics to your tone and thicken it up quite substantially. This also makes the bottom end less "tight" or "bloom" as some refer to it (IME) and that combined with a very sensitive cab like the 410XLT makes your speakers jump out more than your demeter stewart combination will.

    Tube amps have less "damping" than SS amps, what this means is that they aren't as quick to pull the speaker back after they've pushed them out (in laymans terms) and this is why people recommend using sealed cabs with tube amps, as sealed cabs create a vacuum in the box when the speaker is pushed out, which helps to "suck" the speaker back in and thereby helps control the speaker excursion with a tube amp

    Thats not to say that you can't use ported cabs with tube amps, it just means that you might possibly wear the speakers in a ported cab faster and with fast consecutive notes, your speakers might not respond as fast as with a sealed cab - the same way suspension on a car or bike will get overloaded if it doesn't have a fast enough rebound over consecutive bumps
  7. artiseasy, Gearhead 17,

    I shredded the cone on a 15" with a solid state amp, SWR power 750. I was running a bi amped setup, and playing an Alembic Epic 5 str. The cab was a ported 2 x15. The cone spit out the front in 5 or 6 pieces. It was on outdoor show, about 2500 people, and the adrenaline was running wild. I took the whole cab to the maker, and they said the cab was tuned to 40hz, not 30hz, and that may explain the excess excursion. They replaced the speaker for free anyway! This was the only time I have seen it happen.
  8. the cab is tuned to 40hz and that is their reason for the speaker blowing? Sounds like a case of: "if I talk really technical, this guy will think I know what I'm talking about..." to me...
  9. Jerrold Tiers

    Jerrold Tiers

    Nov 14, 2003
    St Louis
    Recently de-bunked yet again...... it's not true. Damping in tube amps is sufficient to behave normally and as expected. The idea that tubes inherently have not enough damping is a "legend".

    But tube amps CAN cause larger transients at low frequencies, and if the amp has good LF performance, like the SVT, it may cause more speaker movement.

    Also, it is possible, with various EQ settings, to get more "action" in response to the picking transients. to see that, just press the strings in and release at normal volume settings. If the speakers flap, consider rolling out some lows.

    Sealed cabs DO tend to prevent as much cone movement and flap, and unlike a ported cab, they do not totally release all cone control at low frequencies.

    If cab was tuned to 40 hz, that should have been the frequency of LEAST cone movement....... but if you pushed LOWER freqs, it may well have let the speaker flap freely down there. So it is NOT BS techietalk.
  10. Geoff St. Germaine

    Geoff St. Germaine Commercial User

    Aug 31, 2001
    Halifax, Canada
    Owner - St. Germaine Guitars
    It is true that with ported cabinets the cone excursion for frequencies below the tuning frequency skyrockets. This is because the driver is unloaded and behaves like a driver operating outside of a cabinet.

    Whether that's what's happening here is unclear.
  11. Rickenbackerman


    Apr 17, 2001
    Laurel MD
    FWIW I've experienced the exact same thing with both of my early 70's SVT's and my Eden 410XLT's. Furthermore, I creased all four cones in one of the Edens using an ABM500 at a really loud volume. I just don't think the 410XLT likes any amp that produces a lot of really low frequency content.
  12. JGR

    JGR The "G" is for Gustav Commercial User

    Jun 29, 2006
    President, CEO, CFO, CIO, Chief Engineer, Technician, Janitor - Reiner Amplification
    FWIW, low frequency damping in tube amps depends a combination of several factors such as the amount of negative feedback, power supply capacitance, transformers, and chokes - all design paramaters - you can design a tube amp with very high or very low damping, or anywhere in between, and it does vary from manufacturer to manufacturer.

  13. IanAllison

    IanAllison Supporting Member

    May 27, 2006
    Thanks for the info and opinions guys. There is definitely a difference in cone excursion between the Ampeg 810 vs. the Eden cabes - huge difference.

    Maybe it's time for a Bergie NV610!
  14. Matt Call

    Matt Call Supporting Member

    Aug 1, 2004
    Minneapolis, MN
    *cough* NV215 *cough*

  15. Senor SQUID

    Senor SQUID Guest

    Jan 11, 2004
    Double NV215 Cough
  16. Luckydog


    Dec 25, 1999
    I have used and continue to use the similar combinations-

    70's SVT and 90's SVT-II into
    single Eden 210XLT
    2 Eden 210XLT's
    single BE 15
    two BE 15's
    BE 15 with BE 210

    I have noted larger cone excursions in the Eden cabs with my SVTs. And I use no bass boost, just pretty much flat settings.
  17. 4Mal

    4Mal Gold Supporting Member

    Jun 2, 2002
    Columbia River Gorge
    I saw he same with a V4B and a couple of different potred cab's. Into a sealed cab - no wild excursion. I really think this has something to do with the design of the amp.

    In my case the cab's were a reflex horn designed Music man 115 RH, Music Man HD2x12 and a home brew sealed 1x15 with a JBL in it. Only the home brew box sounded good with the V4B. The cone flapping thing was pretty alarming... I stopped before damaging anything. I was pretty sure that I'd be picking up pieces of speaker if I continued to play ...

    An SVT VR on an NV610 sounded awfully good last Sunday ...
  18. kringle77

    kringle77 Supporting Member

    Jul 30, 2004
    Massena NY
    I have ran a svt classic into eden cabs and observed the massive cone movement. Jerrold covered the explanation why. Just roll your low end off a bit.
  19. IanAllison

    IanAllison Supporting Member

    May 27, 2006
    But that's no fun!! :crying:

    I'm glad it's not something horribly wrong with my SVT. Sounds like Bergie time. Until then I'll just have to man up and haul the fridge.

    I recently picked up an Aguilar DB750 (thank you very much to Mr. Opaquebass for hooking a brother up) and it is doing a fine job of curing me of my SVT lust. What a great amp - into dang near ANY cab.

    Thanks again guys,

  20. Bryan316

    Bryan316 Inactive

    Dec 20, 2006
    Eden's tone is designed around speakers designed to work with open ported cabs. SVT810's are designed with sealed cabs. Speakers must be designed to work for either kind of cab design, to properly work with them.

    The speakers in a ported cab are designed to handle greater cone movement. That's how they work. Because to get the tone that ported cab was designed to project, the low end requires lots of cone movement.

    An Ampeg Fridge is not designed for extreme low-end reproduction. They're rock-n-roll cabinets. Not designed for really low end like 5-string basses and such. They're great cabs for old-school rockin' tone. NOT for subwoofer lows like modern ported cabinets.

    The Edens are designed to breathe. Don't worry. I'm always listening to my 212 and 210, thinking they're distorting. Nope, it's the Eden growl. I've even watched my cones when I have the master volume light blinking like a sumbitch. It was a heavenly tone. And nope, no cone destruction.

    Your Eden cones are designed to have greater excursion because ported cabs need more cone movement for their low end tone. Ampeg Fridge drivers aren't designed for a cab that can drop down to 40hz, so a sealed cab only needs a little excursion compared to the Eden.

    You'll be fine.