Tension vs Tone, and what makes 'mwah'?

Subscribed. I have a similar problem with my ToneSmith 320 5 string. I've been blaming the stings - an ancient set of Elixer's, but I've had less than desireable mwaaahhh with D'Addario slow wounds as well.

On my Godin Accousticaster GHS Boomers always provided the best Mwaaaahhhh, despite being the strings I like least on a fretted bass. Is it the harsh mids that make the fretless come alive?

- Paul

 

You're asking multiple questions here:

Mwah is a function of several factors, namely your setup, your technique, your settings, your strings and your electronics. Roundwounds are generally going to yield more mwah because they generate more mids and highs than flats, and they interact with the fingerboard in a more lively way. Go for low action, and adjust your technique (i.e. attack) accordingly. Consider panning toward either the bridge or neck pickup - whichever yields more mwah for you.

As to the "B" string, yes, tighter tension should help. You don't necessarily need to go to a heavier gauge, if you can find another make/model in the same gauge that has inherently tighter tension than the strings you're using now. But all things considered, a heavier gauge often does the trick.

You might also need to tweak your setup slightly, to make sure there is nothing inhibiting the vibration/resonance of the string. Unfortunately, your options here may be limited because some basses just inherently have a poor "B" string response.

MM

 

B strings don't mwah as much anyway, due to the bigger string excursion and less flexibility. But it also sounds like a setup issue might be there, even after finding YOUR string.

 

+1 to setup and technique. Also Carvin's onboard electronics are the weakest part of their basses- people who were disappointed by a Carvin usually complain it was the pickups and preamp that they didn't like.

I disagree about right hand technique and playing by the neck pickup. Jaco got plenty of mwah when he wanted, and he played by the bridge pup. And IMO it doesn't matter how you pluck (or even pick) the string, it's what you do with your left hand that livens or deadens mwah (at least for the technique part of the equation). It's like a subtle/slow pressed vibrato with the fretting fingers.

But again I do think that a proper setup can make worlds of difference.

 

If you go to www.juststrings.com they show the tension charts for many of the string sets (but only when the manufacturer has provided that info). Some manufacturers will also have those charts on their websites (for only their own products obviously).

I actually prefer a little more buzz on the low B for greater clarity in the mix, even though the rest of my strings are flats. I use Elixir coated strings for the Low B. So I don't think roundwounds per se are responsible for any muddiness.

 

Agree. Watch Gary Willis. He hardly plays his bass at all, yet it just mwah's and mwah's all day long.

 

Only three companies I know of supply tensions:

D'Addario, Labella on their website (and they made some of obvious mistakes I had to figure out), and Thomastik-Infeld. But using the figures for strings of the same type will always get you very close in the ballpark.

But mwah is lergely a setup and fingering-hand issue as Bongo says, though the inflexibility of a fatter string makes it tough to have at all (you should try to get wmah with a .165-.185 F#0!). One of my fretless basses is a Carvin, and until I had both of these right I didn't have my epiphany. Then the "feel" was there and I had a clue. The Carvin hadn't changed except for my setup. I could mwah for days then, no matter whether playing passive or using the preamp (current version which is better) with just about any knob settings.

That said, lower-mids (250-500 Hz) and mid-mids (500-1000 Hz, I usually use 630 or 800) will bring out what mwah is alredy there in your rounds and bass, and since a J bridge pickup position is strong in those frequencies too, that helps. But if the setup isn't all the way there and you haven't felt it yet with your left hand, it doesn't matter what you do downstream really.

 

As far as gauges, I prefer fairly light ones, but that's more about my playing preferences, and who am I to say it makes more wah when Gary Willis is using the same brand but heavier ones. It's kinda player-specific and also what suits a given bass best.

 

Mwah is created largely by a controlled buzz of the string against the finger board. Lower action contributes, round wound strings will make the mwah more audiable but listen to any number of DB players ie Brian Bromberg, Mwah for days using flatwounds.

The most important factors IMO is a flat finger board and low-ish action. In other words little neck relief. The strings do not have to be very, very low but neck must be relatively flat.

Hope that helps.

 

Yeah, low action, less relief, more control of touch. Gary Willis ferinstance uses a ramp to help him control his plucking touch so as to stay within the dynamic range and tonal sweet zone of the setup he uses and so that he doesn't lose speed by staying more relaxed.

Newbies (I was one myself*) tend to beat the bass even when they think they are just "digging in" and it takes awhile if forever for some to realize that finesse and a bigger amp can trump pounding and mangling.


*relatively I'll always be a newbie to Willis and others like him ; }

 

What makes "mwah"?

If your action is too high, it ain't gonna happen. But that doesn't mean it has to be super low, either. Once it's down to a certain point, your technique becomes the key.

Plucking hand - how you attack the string..... softer or harder, tip or fleshy part of your finger, plucking more across the string, parallel to the fretboard, or more downward on the string, perpendicular to the fretboard, all has an effect.

Fretting hand - fretting with the harder tip of your finger, or using the softer, "meatier" middle part of the finger, plus how hard you push down, plus your vibrato technique (do it like a violinist/cellist/upright bassist - roll your finger along the string, don't bend it side to side like a guitarist)...... all this has a MAJOR effect.

Fretless bass is a very sensitive , very expressive instrument, but you have to learn how to make it talk. It doesn't come just because the frets aren't there. You have to learn it's language.

 

Great stuff, Matban! BAM POW!

Conversely - partly because I play in cover bands and play ONLY fretless basses - I've gone for fairly bright wood choices and electronics, and a tonally flexible rig... I dig the flexibility of NOT sounding fretless, hiding the mwah and slides sometimes, and other times bringin' 'em out.

Man, I love them babies!

 

I realize the following comment is OT, but this observation deserves a thread of its own, Greenboy. Or more like several hundred!

I've been preaching "lighten up and refine your technique, and let the amp do the hard work" to noobies - very few of whom will actually take it to heart - for so long that I'm just about spent. Someone take the baton and run with it. Quick!

MM

 

Ah, well, the first couple of years I didn't even KNOW I was pounding - except for at gigs sometimes where I'd realize that getting adrenalized was obviously hurting my tone on some notes and double/triple-stops ; }

Then, another couple years before it dawned on me that I should practice with less force still since I was experimenting with lighter and lighter string sets (bear with me folks - I'm getting to a strings-related point)... I found that the tension on the A and D strings in factory sets was often a lot greater than on the E and G, let alone the B, and it was throwing me off because they could take bigger hits without making a bunch of squwarky flotsam along with the actual notes. When I'd hit one of the other strings that hard it became more obvious...

So I began building sets with closer to balanced tension and that began another chapter of observation and improvement.

 

Actually, that's a common misconception about Jaco, that he plays by the bridge pickup.

I saw an interview years ago where Jaco said he varies his right hand position depending on what he wants.

He said he goes to the bridge for sharp, attacking staccato notes in solos and fast runs, and when he wants a certain tone. He goes to the neck pickup for a richer tone, the mwah.

Since the fast runs (and harmonics) are what distinguished Jaco, people probably think of him for for that, but Jaco certainly varied his right hand position to control his tone.

Watch Jaco carefully in this video. He is doing what he said in the interview he does.

I'm trying to remember where I saw the interview, but it doesn't really matter. You can watch that youtube link and see him doing it right there anyway.

I don't think we can rule out much when it comes to controlling our tone, including mwah... right hand, left hand, woods, strings, electronics... In fact, I think I ought to try some high waist white trousers as well, 'cause they all seem to play a part.

 

+1

Last spring I switched one of my fretless basses over from round wounds to flat wounds for the first time.

Just before I changed the strings, I recorded a few bass lines, whatever random lines popped into my head, then changed the strings and recorded them again with flats.

I just went back to that comparison to see if there was a difference in mwah. Same player, same bass, same cheap recorder... different strings.

I think the flats mwah about as much as the rounds.

You can listen for yourself if you want.

Just don't be too critical; this was only intended for me to hear and is raw in every way possible, and was never intended to have anything to do with mwah, you know?

The first time you hear a line, it is with round wound strings, the second time is with flats.

By the way, I'm not saying mwah isn't more associated with rounds, I'm just agreeing that either string can do it if your bass and hands are set for it.

 

Tiz 1,

I have a Carvin Bolt 5 Fretless, which is very similar, and has virtually the same electronics package as the stock BB versions. I encountered much the same problems as yourself, and took these steps over time to get the tone and the mwah I wanted and needed.

1. I changed to light gauge strings: While in a store where a friend of mine works as a guitar technician, (Who is also the bassist for "Altered", a contemporary Christian group)
suggested using Fender 7250-5 light gauge set to help with my joint and arthrits problems instead of the medium set I was using, also said that light gauges were better for the classic "mwah sound" on fretless. I thought at the time he was full of it, but just so happens he was right. After installing the strings I discovered he was right. The gauges of the set, by the way, are .40-.115. Even with the light B string there is not much wah, which is okay because it would lead to a difinitely mushy sound.

2. I changed my set up to a straight as you dare neck and a low action. This helped With the control and made it much less lighter touch to play. Suited the mwah sound as well. I really had to adjust my heavy hitting and yanking style I had played to that point.

3. Hand placement is very important. For a very classic mwah I put my hands directly over the top of the fingerboard before it runs into the body, kind of like some folks play the upright. Bad technique? Probably, but it works. for less mwah I play between the fretboard and the first pup or between the pups for more of a fretted sound. It has also made me play with a lighter touch, which is better for fretless anyway, and much relief for my joint problems.

4. Which pick up or both? Canting towards the rear pup also helps out with the mwah sound on basses with Jazz type pup setups. I will have mine set 60 % with the fader to the rear. Interestingly, I will blend it more to the front when I want an upright tone.
Bassist Dan Glenn puts his all the way to the back. He even has a signature model Jazz clone made by someone with a single pup in the rear bridge position. He plays fretless almost exclusively, at least the last time I kept up with him.

Carvin electronics: I do find the sound of my Bolt 5 to be less "bright" than other active basses I own or have owned. Probably a combination of that and the humbuckers on the bass. I simply pull the pot switch and go passive. The passive tone actually brings out more of the tone I need. The electronics do well, however, for the folk/country/acoustic type stuations I play in. I just like the passive sound better.

Hope that helps.