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Thought police

Discussion in 'Miscellaneous [DB]' started by Jeff Bollbach, Dec 7, 2006.

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  1. Jeff Bollbach

    Jeff Bollbach Jeff Bollbach Luthier, Inc.

    Dec 12, 2001
    freeport, ny
    "Ok, guys.
    I think we've had enough in that thread now.
    Nothing valuable came from it recently.
    Time to do something else.

    As a conclusion: let me tell you pnchad didn't renew his Golden Membership Subscription.
    We take this seriously on this side of the board.

    This is not the first member that leaves with bitterness.
    Watch for some new guidelines here on the DB forums in the coming weeks.
    As an aside, the new BB software now supports some kind of member score. Infractions will result in increased score.
    And actions will be taken accordingly."

    Here's a quote from another thread by someone in power. Now that's a good idea! Reminds me of that terrible Sly Stone movie "Demolition Man" [Sandra Bullock, Wesley Snipes-you know the one]. They're in the future and if you curse or sumpin a voice appears out of thin air and you get demerits on your happy,happy/joy,joy credits. and surely there will be more demerits for po'ing a gold supporting member than an ordinary supporting member-obviously money talks here.

    I was the first luthier here over five years ago and I've spent many hours happily posting whatever I could share about the bass. I convinced Arnold to give it a try and that has worked out to everyones advantage. Not to sound arrogant but I was instrumental years ago in helping to create an environment where players could come and get great info from a bunch of luthiers on the same page[BLABLA, the Brotherhood of Loosely Associated Bass Luthiers of America-Nnick's name]. from good guys who are committed to doing the right thing without bs. TBDB did very well and thrived without any overmoderation from the likes of Chris, Donosaurus and Sam. and I also had some fun when it used to be fun here. Never called anyone any names but if some pinhead[sp?] thought I owed him free advice I might chide him. Big deal. I don't think anyones chops were EVER bustid here that didn't need it.
    I tell ya one thing, the day that I have to worry about getting "infractions" for stupid little BS I will nuke every last word I ever wrote here including my stickies in the newbie section. I'm not gonna wait around to get fired slowly.
  2. hdiddy

    hdiddy Official Forum Flunkee Supporting Member

    Mar 16, 2004
    Richmond, CA
    Aw man, did I miss me some TB drama? After all the deletions, that thread is nothing but disjointed posts now. *pout*

    Points for your posts? Is that like troll ratings? Sounds lame to me. I guess money talks, even on TB.
  3. musicman5string

    musicman5string Banned

    Jan 17, 2006
    One of the problems on any internet message board is the actions of the moderators. Some do thier jobs; they get rid of obvious trolls, merge similar threads, and basically act like a floor moderator in a college dorm. But that's the problem: floor moderators in a college dorm don't play fair, because they can be as immature as those they report on. Same as cops, bosses, politicians, and basically any human being with some authority over others.
    Over the computer, it's very difficult to tell when someone is really serious, when they're busting chops for fun, or when they're totally just kidding, and I've often seen, and been a part of, discussions that went south real quick for no reason. A computer can't convie human emotion or intention.
    I know the thread you're talking about. I read it. I've also had the opportunity to debate with KS myself. He's a nice guy. I don't own one of his basses, and don't plan to, so I have no reason to kiss up. But I prefer someone who is direct and doesn't dance around what they're thinking. Might just be me. I suppose Miles wouldn't have made many friends over the internet.
    At any rate, the reason the moderator was pissed was because the original poster didn't renew his special membership= loss of $ for talkbass.
    Now we see the real world working in this little playground. In case I get punished, I'll talk to you guys after school when I'm done cleaning the erasers.
  4. Jake deVilliers

    Jake deVilliers Commercial User

    May 24, 2006
    Crescent Beach, BC
    Owner of The Bass Spa, String Repairman at Long & McQuade Vancouver
    Well, we already have revisionist history, I don't see why the Thought Police should be far behind.

    Ken's post about the top sag has been removed, as has Chad's response where he says something about "expecting you to show up" and proceeds to tell Ken to "get off my thread".

    I was really surprised that there was no censure offered at this point. I don't always agree with Ken and he does barge right in, but the thread was entitled "OK, Help!"

    Here's a tip Chad. This is a public forum and you won't agree with every post, you won't like every poster and you can expect some to not care for your attitude much either.
    So what!

    If you don't want that particular help, let it slide. There is plenty of value here along with the usual preconceptions, misconceptions and the like.

    I'm sticking around because I don't know it all yet. :)
  5. Damon Rondeau

    Damon Rondeau Journeyman Clam Artist Supporting Member

    Nov 19, 2002
    Winnipeg, baby
    I thought pnchad was doing great until at the first opportunity he shrieked at KS in big red letters. That's like kicking the dog for barking. There's no sport in it. What purpose does it serve?

    Then to step it up into a whole "you guys are so cliquish and cold I can't stand it", well, that's just lame. Bye bye.
  6. Uncletoad


    May 6, 2003
    Columbus Ohio
    Proprietor Fifth Avenue Fret Shop. Technical Editor Bass Gear Magazine
    If my opinion means anything at all (not that it should) I think this equivalent of a card holding jury in the peanut gallery should be discarded for some other method of crowd control.

    That thread was an excellent car wreck to drive by. I get sadistic pleasure from watching that kind of cyber crash and burn.

    Lots of smart people here. Lots of strong personalities. Thats what keeps me here in spite of the inevitable abrasiveness that comes with it. The attempt to police the dialog must be tempered with the awareness that they'll be some bodies on the side of the road no matter what direction you go.

    You hamstring the abrasive folks and you'll loose them. You let them loose and you'll loose those that can't hang with them.

    For me a huge part of the DB side's attraction is the repair and builder experts that hang out here and have conversation. Dialog. Just as real as if you are hanging in a club. Not just "experts" giving opinion in a subtle attempt at marketing. Alienate them and you'll be left with a big hole in the dialog.

    I'd rather loose a $60 thin skin than all these heavyweight cats. If this is really all about money than you'll loose me too.

    TBDB has so far been a place of considered opinion, vast information and useful dialog. Start hacking up the posts and I'm afraid that may go away. Loose that and all you are left with is equipment adds for people who collect stuff and play in their bedroom.

    Even the thread in question has a ton of high dollar free experience in it. The cost of that was a thick skin. Suck it up and learn. Nobody owes anybody any kind of response here. If one appears it's a gift. If a person doesn't get what they want perhaps thats a gift too and they should pay attention.

    Then again it could be yet another rant from a grumpy bass player. Sluff it off. Live another day. Take what you need and leave the rest.
  7. paul

    paul Staff Member Founder Administrator

    Jul 20, 2000

    If you have issues with my moderators, please take it up with me privately. This is actually required by the usage agreement you agreed to when you registered for these forums. Public discussion on the mod's decisions results in only heated opinions and no resolution 90% of the time. Private communication results in a resolution for both parties 90% of the time. Believe me, I've been in this business a long time.

    I was the one that requested the DB mods be more strict on 'bullying' and aggressiveness, after having a veteran TB'er tell me he's leaving. The fact that he's a gold supporter has nothing to do with it. I do not let money influence my decisions, and I have a record to back that up, letting paying advertisers go before changing policies to suit their demands (with $ amounts several times what a $60/year membership would bring in).

    The thing that bothered me about this member leaving, is he genuinely believed that he could not post on TB without receiving hostility in reply. This is NOT my vision of TalkBass. And I wanted to make sure the moderators felt able to take action when needed, to make sure that every member feels welcome on these boards. If you want to call it "Thought Police", that's fine - But please understand, this is an internet message board. There will be moderation. The moderators are charged with keeping these forums clean, friendly, and a welcome place for players of all genres.

    Jeff, if you'd like to take your complaint up with me, please email me your case. But please respect our terms of use and do not question the mods publicly in their own forums.

    {edit} I'll just add that, the moderators we have here in DB, are some of the most civil, most respectful, most capable moderators to be found on ANY internet message board. They devote a lot of their time to these forums, for no money, and I'm extremely proud to have them on board. Did they go too far in moderating XYZ thread? Anything is possible, nobody's perfect - shoot me an email and we can talk it out.


  8. paul

    paul Staff Member Founder Administrator

    Jul 20, 2000
    The infraction system is a new feature of VBulletin that I've instituted to make the moderator's jobs easier. It's primary benefit is on the BG forums, where it used to take a lot of effort for a mod to delete out profanity, email the user, manually post a warning etc. Now with one click, the user gets a warning, a PM in the mail, and a record is automatically created, so that if the user keeps posting profanity, he moves closer to a 5-day temp ban (10 points = 5 day temp ban, etc). Here in DB the mods are free to use the points infraction system as well, but I suspect it will not have to be used very much.
  9. Chris Fitzgerald

    Chris Fitzgerald Student of Life Staff Member Administrator Gold Supporting Member

    Oct 19, 2000
    Louisville, KY
    Howdy folks. I don't have time to get deep into this whole scenario because I'm in the middle of a 70 hour work week at my day gig, have gigs at night, and my wife is under the weather. That said, I'd like to help try and sort everything out sometime early next week when the semester is over if there's anything left to sort out at that point.

    In the meantime, everybody please just go get a nice glass of wine or a valium or whatever floats yer boat, and do your best not to get too worked up over what's gone on. I've said it a thousand times: as boards like this get bigger, they go through growing pains because of increased commercialism (and the potential for abuse that that bring with it from various directions), and from clashes between members. Mods are left holding the bag when this happens.

    I gotta go grade about 4000 exams, but before I do that, let me just say that I think Francois is a great mod who does a ton of stuff behind the scenes that nobody ever sees but me and Paul. I would prefer that issues like the subject of this thread be dealt with behind the scenes as well, but since we're here, I just wanted to mention how difficult it can be to walk the fine line between keeping Paul's rules in place (and remember that many of them come to be in an effort to keep the BG side in order - since it's about 50 times more populated, issues come up there more quickly and frequently) and keeping the general population happy and not sniping at each other, which is always a danger on internet boards. We do the best we can. Sometimes, people get ****ed, and we try to clean up. We're always learning how to do that. Please help us to do that by contacting us before things blow out of control.

    There are people on this board who think I'm a total jerk, and people who don't care for Francois' style. That's life, folks, and it would be no different no matter who either of us were. If anyone has concerns about the way one of us is is handling a situation and can't get satisfaction from direct communication with that person, please contact the other one, or if that fails, contact Paul. Please believe that we're both doing our best in a job that is unpaid, time consuming, and often thankless. We do it because we think TB is a great resource, and we want to give something back to help it keep running. There's no power trip going on here. We make judgements in the middle of a busy day, and sometimes they **** people off. When that happens, we take a step back and try to see what we could have done better. We'll do that here, and move on. If anyone would like to see what kind of ****age an unmoderated board creates, please go spend a few hours at homerecording.com. My guess is that when you get back here, it might not seem so bad.

    At any rate, I gotta work now. We'll get a handle on the changes that are happening, and hopefully nobody will suffer irreversible damage as a result. So please, everybody, pop open a brew/glass of wine/sedative of choice and let things settle down before venting on Francois or myself in public - we're trying, and we'll keep on doing so. And like each of you, neither of us is perfect. But I'll say it again - Francois has done a lot of great work to keep the board running smoothly, and should not be vilified in a public thread, nor should any mod according to the rules paul established in an effort to have a civil board. Our inboxes are always open for complaints and suggestions, as is Paul's. And ultimately, any contentious issue is Paul's call because he's the one who created this board for all of us to use. Personally, I'm glad he did. Again, we're trying, and we'll keep on doing so.



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