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thoughts on a new cab

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by Edenman, Aug 15, 2005.


  1. Edenman

    Edenman

    Aug 15, 2005
    Hi new to the head/cab setup versus a combo amp setup. Ive managed to acquire relatively cheaply an Ampeg SVT3 Pro and am currently playing through an Eden 210 XLT cab (8 ohm). Im considering adding another cabinet and after reading a lot of threads, might look into Bag End, and Bergantino. Couple of questions: anyone use a 2 x 10 coupled with a 1 x 12? I want to make sure I dont underpower the cabinets - will the SVT3 pro be sufficient if I add a 1 x 15 or 1 x 12? Portability is important to me which is why I am looking into these two brands, but I cant find them remotely close by to try out anywhere, especially the Bag Ends!! (Im in Massachusetts). thoughts? I guess specifically Im contemplating running the SVT3 Pro, with the Eden 2 x 10 XLT (8 ohm), plus a Bag End S15-D (if I can find it, and try it) or maybe a Bergantino HT112. Im concerned about overpowering the cabs, or rather, underpowering the cabs.
     
  2. Eric Moesle

    Eric Moesle Supporting Member

    Sep 21, 2001
    Columbus OH
    Its impossible to underpower a cab. Put one watt through a cab rated at 800 watts, and it will be fine. Its when you drive your amp to the point of clipping the power amp section that causes damage to speakers.

    Typically, its OK to OVERPOWER your speakers by almost double its RMS rating, again provided you don't drive the power section to clipping, and you back off the volume a bit when you start to hear the speakers stress.
     
  3. Edenman

    Edenman

    Aug 15, 2005
    Ah, makes sense...I guess I dont want to hurt the amp in any way shape or form.

    Also, thoughts about a 2x10 with a 112 setup? And what does everyone do when they cant play through a setup because its not sold anywhere?

    Thanks in advance.
     
  4. Woodboy

    Woodboy

    Jun 9, 2003
    St. Louis, MO
    Edenman, why not stay true to your name and look at another Eden cab? I believe most of them will interlock together, which is way preferable to having some type of jerry rigged setup with mis-matched cabs perched precariously on top of one another. Don't mean to harsh your buzz about the new rig and all, but the SVT-3 is not exactly a power beast. Check carefully before you buy to see if it will drive both cabs to your satisfaction.
     
  5. Edenman

    Edenman

    Aug 15, 2005
    Hi, thanks for the response woodboy. Yes, I actually agree with you...my situation at the time was certainly cost driven, and for the price, I got a used SVT3 Pro for quite a bargain. But, at the moment, this is what I have, and what I am going to function with for the time being. As far as using an Eden 115 for example, I live in a small apartment, 4 floors up, no elevator. I really liked the way the Eden xlt 210 sounded, so didnt want to turn it down. Im looking for something more portable than the Eden 115, which is why I was looking into a Bag End or Bergantino maybe (I think their 115s or 112s only weigh around 40 lbs or so). For me, portability is a huge issue. Im looking for a great sounding, reasonably powerful, but also very portable setup. I think I can get by with the SVT3Pro, and Eden 210 xlt, just looking to add a little more fullness, low end, and loudness...and thought adding one of the two cabs noted above would be a good choice?
     
  6. Edenman

    Edenman

    Aug 15, 2005
    sorry, just a question to one of the responses...whats the best way determine if the amp will power a pair of cabs?

    Obviously, I know the easiest answer is hook everything up0 and try it out....

    Can this easily be determined by amp handling and cabinet handling?
     
  7. permagrin

    permagrin

    May 1, 2003
    San Pedro, CA
    Eden D112XLT has the same sensitivity rating (103dB) as the D210XLT - so if both are 8 ohm and you give them the same power, one will not overpower the other. They should have pretty much the same character to their tone (the signature XLT lo-mid strength), the 210 will have more punch, the 112 a little smoother thump to it. The 112 is 38 lbs. Best source new is probably BassNW, haven't seen one used.

    I've been gassin for the 112 to sit under my D210MBX (wedge version of 210XLT). My amp is a WT330. I have a 212XLT that's super but obviously not as portable. Also have a Genz 112T that sounds alright under the 210, but the Genz is only 97dB so it it doesn't do a whole lot next to the Eden wedge.

    And BTW, "hooking everything up and trying it" can be the easiest way... to fry your gear. But you should be okay here, I assume the Ampeg head will handle a 4 ohm load, and you'll draw more power than just the single 8 ohm 210XLT cab.
     
  8. bass-shy

    bass-shy

    Jan 11, 2005
    Florida
    Have you considered adding another 210xlt?
     
  9. Edenman

    Edenman

    Aug 15, 2005
    Hi, thanks again for the responses. Just a few answers: the ampeg svt3 pro according to specs. is 275 watts at 8 ohms, 450 watts at 4 ohms., although based on some threads, I know some people have disagreed with the volume the amp puts out based on wattage to follow up Permagrin. So...Im hoping nothing gets fried. From a follow up question I asked earlier, my biggest concern that I know the least about is matching amp power and cab handling and vice versa....I dont want to blow any cabinets (based on what I have and what I am looking for, I dont think Ill do that), but I also dont want to damage the amp, and Im still a little lost as to how people can damage the amp...someone before mention clipping?

    Bass-shy: I have seen some people post about using a second 2 x 10. What is the advantage of using a second 2 x 10 versus a 1x15 (or 1x 12)? I think this has been answered before, but I will ask again, are 2 2x10s similar to a 4 x 10?
     
  10. bass-shy

    bass-shy

    Jan 11, 2005
    Florida
    The advantages of adding another 2x10 are:

    You effectively double your total speaker surface area, thus producing much more volume. The two sets of tens "couple" to give a similar effect to using a stand-alone 4x10.

    You already have a 210xlt, and you are obviously pleased with it.

    Having matching cabs looks much cleaner than mis-matched cabs.

    You can take one or both cabs with you, depending on the size of the room you will be playing, and still get the same general tone.


    I hope this helps you to reach a decision. Remember, there are many great cabs out there and many more that will leave you disappointed. Stick with the ones you know you like and you can spend more time playing. Good luck.
     
  11. permagrin

    permagrin

    May 1, 2003
    San Pedro, CA
    Matching cab power handling to amp power isn't nearly as critical as matching impedances. That said, you can damage cabs by pushing your amp too hard ("underpowering" means that you're trying to get more volume than the amp can cleanly produce). If you keep things within 'normal' operating ranges, don't push things to distortion/clipping, you'll be fine. When going real loud, use your ears as much as the little warning lights.

    In general, your amp should put out between half and double the cab RMS handling spec. Any less and you won't be giving it enough juice to open up to it's sound, any more is asking for trouble. Best if the numbers match, but again it's not that critical, just make sure to keep things in the happy zone.

    2x210s will be 'like' a 410. Another 210XLT will be another what, 68 lb box or something. It'll have more speaker surface area than a 112, so even if you add a cab with the same efficiency the 210 may be perceived as a bit louder (splitting hairs there). A 112XLT will give you a slighly different attack, and give you another option for when you only need a single cab. Some guys don't prefer single driver cabs, some feel multi-driver cabs do goofy things with interactions/dispersions or whatever... nothing is pure, it's all a matter of individual preference and what floats yer boat.
     
  12. Edenman

    Edenman

    Aug 15, 2005
    Thanks again for the responses...hearing others opinions is very helpful. As far as getting a second Eden 210 XLT, I agree, I think it would make for a good setup, but I wanted to make things a little more portable (this weighs in at 68 lbs), and was hoping to have one cab that was closer to 40. The second is there are just certain brands that I cant find easily. I got lucky with the Eden I have, but I havent seen any stores near me sell Eden - Guitar center by me used to, but not anymore.

    Regarding the power issues, I was reading other threads and have been trying to educate myself in this area so I dont damage a cabinet or an amp. My understanding is that amp clipping occurs when the amp is working too hard (i.e. distorting because the volume is too high, etc). When clipping occurs, it puts out greater power that the cabinets might not be able to handle (up to twice as much?), so you can damage the cabinet. This is why people buy more powerful amps - in this scenario, one just needs to watch out they dont overpower the cabinet and blow a speaker. Are my facts more or less correct?
    If at 4 ohms, according to specs, I can put out 450 watts with the amp I have, can I drive the Eden 210 (350 watts)*and* another 300 watt cabinet efficiently such that I dont clip and its also doesnt sound too muddy? is this too underpowered?
     
  13. Snarf

    Snarf

    Jan 23, 2005
    New York, NY
    Another side question: 210 + 112 = good low B?
     
  14. Edenman

    Edenman

    Aug 15, 2005
    Yes, I would like to add to Snarf's comment...right now I play a 4-string, but am considering getting another bass (at some point), most likely a 5 string. Will a 2x10 and a 112 handle a low B? Would I be better off with a 1x15 instead of the 112?
     
  15. permagrin

    permagrin

    May 1, 2003
    San Pedro, CA
    Depends on the specific cab of course, but in general speaker diameter has NOTHING to do with frequency response and everything to do with attack. You'll hear people say 10s are tighter, punchy-er, and 15s are looser, slower, 12s are in between but closer to 10s, etc. But you can get plenty of low end response from some 10s, heck even 8s. In the Eden line, the 210XST is more adept at producing the low fundamentals... how important is that? again depends on your preference. Use the spec numbers to get a basic idea of frequency response, efficiency, attack and the like, but no matter what your ear makes the final vote.

    WRT your power question, you have 250W into your cab rated at 350W, or in the future 450W into around 650W (total) rated cabs. So still above the one-half guidline. Would you be happier with more power/headroom? Undoubtedly, especially if you slap/pop or even play with a pick (faster transients like more power available), but that amp will be fine, especially if you're a finger-style player. And BTW very low frequencies take much more power to amplify,... and of course it all comes down to your application needs... and the all too real world consideration of budget...

    ...so upgrade to that 1000W amp if you really need it or when you've generated the cash. In the meantime, speakers are where the rubber hits the road, and where you'll get the most bang for the buck at this point.
     
  16. Edenman

    Edenman

    Aug 15, 2005
    Once again, thanks for the advice.

    So going back to an original question I had....I read a lot about some of these boutique type cabinets...aguilar, bergantino, bag end, etc. What do you do in a situation where the only music stores nearby (even remotely close) appear to only sell cabs like ampeg, swr, etc.? Thats not to say they arent good companies with good equipment, but Ive read so much about these other lighter cabs, I want to try them, but cant find them to try!
     
  17. permagrin

    permagrin

    May 1, 2003
    San Pedro, CA
    It's rough... not sure where you live, but if you get to travel someplace with a big bass store (say, Orlando, home of Bass Central) make a point to set aside some time and try things out.

    Other than that, get a good feel for specs and what the numbers 'should' mean in relation to units you are very familiar with, and check people's opinions (with appropriate grains of salt). Then check the classifieds here, bassgear.com, etc., and get familiar with what units go for used. If there's something you really want to try that's not hugely expensive and you have a reasonable chance of getting your money back, go for it. Something less common or more niche will be riskier.

    For example, a used 210XLT is gonna go for between $325 and 375, roughly, depending on age and condition. Say you buy one for $350, try it, decide it's not for you, you can turn it around some time later for hopefully about the same, probably you'll be out shipping, but all that might be worth the opportunity of using it for a couple months, with your other gear, at your gigs. Getting a good deal in the first place makes it less risky - if you can buy low and sell high, all the better, but don't count on getting rich or anything....

    This won't work for the 112XLT, no one sells them used!