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Tone-hole ‘monitor’ on player’s side of upper bout

Discussion in 'Luthier's Corner [DB]' started by JBarz, Jul 30, 2021.

  1. JBarz

    JBarz Trying to talk bass less and play bass more. Supporting Member Commercial User

    Mar 6, 2015
    image.jpg Hey guys,
    I’ve got a couple guitars that feature this cool idea of a “personal” sound hole for the player to monitor their playing. Has anyone applied this to upright? Tell me about it, please and thank you! I’m tempted to pull out the dryer vent exhaust circular hole drill dealio and cut into a ply wood bass… is this a terrible idea?
     
  2. hdiddy

    hdiddy Official Forum Flunkee Supporting Member

    Mar 16, 2004
    Richmond, CA
    Arnold did this with the Ergo basses. I would talk to a luthier.
     
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  3. Chris Fitzgerald

    Chris Fitzgerald Student of Life Staff Member Administrator Gold Supporting Member

    Oct 19, 2000
    Louisville, KY
    And it was spectacular to play and hear like that. The Ergo I played had three corks so the player could choose which version of the "monitor" worked best for them. I liked them all out.

    I also played a gorgeous Seth Kimmel cornerless bass some years back that had a heart-shaped hole in the same spot. Also really nice.
     
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  4. Matthew Tucker

    Matthew Tucker Commercial User

    Aug 21, 2002
    Sydney, Australia
    Owner: Bresque Basses, Sydney Basses and Cellos
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2021
  5. Does the hole(s) improve the bass response of the instrument, by lowering the hemholz freq?
     
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  6. Matthew Tucker

    Matthew Tucker Commercial User

    Aug 21, 2002
    Sydney, Australia
    Owner: Bresque Basses, Sydney Basses and Cellos
    I don’t know.

    What I do know is that the player appreciates the directed sound in a busy orchestral setting, and users report they can feel the sound in a different way with the port open.

    I quote the owner:

    “I’ve found that the port is the most handy when in a larger orchestral setting. Being able to hear your own sound in a section full of basses is useful with intonation (as you can hear yourself better!). I’ve found it useful in both loud and soft sections. (Although it can add a little volume, so maybe not consistently soft pieces). Sometimes I enjoy playing with it open doing solo and practice work too, for the simple enjoyment of not only hearing, but feeling whatever you input into the sound.”
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2021
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  7. JBarz

    JBarz Trying to talk bass less and play bass more. Supporting Member Commercial User

    Mar 6, 2015
    Mathew, that’s beautiful work, very inspiring - same with Arnold’s stuff! I am reticent to start just drilling holes without plenty of thought as to the size - particularly how it pertains to hemholz. Wouldn’t it be cool if you could fit almost a whole detachable neck in there, though? It would make accessing internal bolts super simple…. I love the idea of an adjustable aperture (like the top of my smoker grill, maybe!), but then again I’ll need to tread a little slower and meditate on it a little longer before I start cutting. My understanding is that if I choose to do this on a carved bass, I’ll have to reinforce it structurally, yeah? I’ve got a decent but not necessarily amazing carved Hofner from the 50’s that is the best candidate, methinks.
     
  8. Steven Ayres

    Steven Ayres Supporting Member

    Mar 11, 2007
    Northern Arizona
    Can anyone articulate a downside to this mod?
     
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  9. Matthew Tucker

    Matthew Tucker Commercial User

    Aug 21, 2002
    Sydney, Australia
    Owner: Bresque Basses, Sydney Basses and Cellos
    i tried for a long time to achieve a reliable adjustable aperture using magnets/sliders/rotating thing etc. In the end, it became too complicated and i didn’t want to lumber a buyer with something that rattled or got stuck or broke either short term or long term.

    You will not be able to know anything meaningful about the helmholz relationship without knowing volume and area of existing sound holes anyway.

    I suggest you decide whether you want the “monitor” function and if so, plan how to reinforce the hole. That will give you your size constraint. remember there are linings inside the ribs, probably bigger than the outside linings if present.
     
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  10. JBarz

    JBarz Trying to talk bass less and play bass more. Supporting Member Commercial User

    Mar 6, 2015
    I suspect overall volume and front-ward projection would be diminished to a varied degree depending on the size, but thats just a theory and a sacrifice I’m willing to make!
     
  11. GretschWretch

    GretschWretch Supporting Member

    Dec 27, 2013
    East Central Alabama
    The port will allow to enter the bass larger rodents that couldn't possibly squeeze in through the f-holes.
     
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  12. JBarz

    JBarz Trying to talk bass less and play bass more. Supporting Member Commercial User

    Mar 6, 2015
    Or feline, for that matter - if large enough!
     
  13. dhergert

    dhergert Gold Supporting Member

    Jan 17, 2018
    Blue Zone, California
    Internal DB duster

    P.S. I can address some tone and sound related questions as they apply to my Alcoa. The location of the port is very important. I play with my access port open when I'm desperate to hear my DB more and when I am not using amplification. I really cannot confidently say it helps -- if it does help, it's very subtle. But, my access port is in the driver-side C, about 2 feet below my ears. From testing a bit, I suspect if there was a similar sized port on my driver-side upper bout, it would help a lot.

    Also, tone coming from inside the DB is very unclear, vague and echo-ey. Tone inside of the DB is also not optimal for amp pickups or mics, for the same reason.

    Again, these observations are from my Alcoa which I would stress is tonally very different from a fine wooden DB.
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2021
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  14. JBarz

    JBarz Trying to talk bass less and play bass more. Supporting Member Commercial User

    Mar 6, 2015
    I took a good long look at the Ergo bass pictures tonight and happened to stumble across an appropriate sized hole saw drill bit… I had a pretty frustrating day wrestling a broken clothes dryer, so I was eager to chalk up a win for the day. I mustered all my “just f’n do it” mojo and made a hole, nbd... Arnold seems to have really worked it out and I hope he doesn’t mind me ripping of his three small hole idea, starting with one. Overall I’m happy I did it, but the fact that I want “more” make me cautious. It’s going to be easy to overshoot it … I want to cut more but am going to play around and just meditate on it for now, as I can tell the size of the hole really effects what comes out (obviously…). It’s really fun to put my ear right up on it. Some notes really push some serious air image.jpg Edit: it's such a subtle thing, but damned if playing my other, nicer basses doesn't feel "off" now - like I've got a stuffed up inner ear thing muffling my hearing. What have I done...?
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2021
  15. At the beginning of the thread, you were considering drilling into the side of a plywood bass. If that was still your intention, I think you may have grabbed the wrong bass in your post-dryer-wrestling frenzy...
     
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  16. JBarz

    JBarz Trying to talk bass less and play bass more. Supporting Member Commercial User

    Mar 6, 2015
    Hah - nay, it was intentional. I lent a buddy my beater German gut ply, so the candidates were either this 50s carved Hofner that I can’t sell because of a big repaired crack on the top, my primo American Standard, the La Scala hybrid, or the Pfretz aluminum. I want to keep the resale value up on the others, so I shan’t mod them. It really seems to have brought this bass from decent/mediocre to exceptional, but it’s too early to say and I’m sure 90% of that is just that I’m hearing it in a new way... regardless, I’m glad I did it because now this bass is …”so much fun!” The hole is 7/8” - I'm considering a 1/2” hole below it. Does anyone know what specific sizes the holes on the Ergo basses are?
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2021
  17. JBarz

    JBarz Trying to talk bass less and play bass more. Supporting Member Commercial User

    Mar 6, 2015
    image.jpg Fit circle cutout with some sheet cork and a random screw so it can be buttoned up again. image.jpg
     
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  18. My bass carved has small ff's and poor low frequency response that's why I asked about these sound ports lowering the helmholtz frequency of the body and improving the low response?
     
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  19. As regards selling it, you might want to talk to some of the university professors in your state or general area, see if they have students who are looking for a decent bass that someone is willing to part with for not too much money. A decent but ugly (within reason, of course) bass is better than no bass or a poorly set-up college bass, after all, and even if I was one of Jon Hamar's students in Knoxville, a 6 hour drive to the opposite side of the state for a halfways decent bass would be worth it if there wasn't one similar in my price range.
     
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  20. German bass would probably sound better with a metric-sized hole.