Transcribing and Learning to PLAY Transcription

[KuMBye YamALaWd]

Hi Janek;

I notice you emphasise the importance of Transcription, and I couldn't agree more; I believe I've made more progress by transcribing (and learning to play those transcriptions) than any other aspect of practice.

My question to you is:

Do you, personally, ALWAYS learn to play (on bass) what you've transcribed?

You've mentioned in another thread that you often sit at the piano when actually transcribing, and move to the bass after that; no doubt you then explore ways of playing said transcription on your bass (which would obviously take more thought and time if the instrumental part transcribed is NOT bass).... but do you actually learn to play these transcriptions note-for-note and up to speed?

I ask this because I've personally found myself in one or both of the following dillemas:

1) there are some transcriptions I'll never be able to play totally accurately (saxophone solos, for instance; Coltrane & Cannonball Adderley) or up-to-speed (Parker), mainly because of the differing natures of the instruments (although I DO find these transcriptions incredibly useful to do, as they often show me a new phrasing, or other valuable nuance, or way of playing the bass that I would otherwise have not found)

2) Some transcriptions I'm sure I could play note-for-note and up-to-speed IF I put in the work - BUT - given there are only 24 hors in a day - I feel it's more important to allocate time to other things - AND - often I feel that the "Act of Transcribing" itself has been valuable.

So for me, I find I need to strike a balance between
1) Time spent transcribing
2) Time spent finding ways to play transcription on my instrument
3) Time spent practising the transcription on my instrument with a view to achieving Accurate execution (up to speed)

...but this balance is elusive for me; Janek, do you find yourself in a similar dilemma at times?
Do you generally learn to play anything you transcribe, or do you need to find the above mentioned "Balance"?
Do you ever transcribe a part WITHOUT any view to playing it?

Look forward to your thoughts,

Kim

P.S. Digging your playing ALOT! (from Myspace page)


..

 

[user3653753]

Kim,

thanks for your post and for checking out the myspace page.

First of all, unless you're talking about a trane solo from sunship, or some of the more out, and wall-of-sound type soloing, there's no reason why you can't play all solos on the bass at the same tempo as the album.

I can't think of any Cannonball or Bird solos that are out of reach. It's just a matter of spending the time and working harder than you normally would to overcome the technical aspect of matching the solo with the record.

So, to your specific questions.

1. yes, I always learn stuff on the bass that I'm transcribing. Don't forget that I normally transcribe at the piano so I'm working it all out on piano up to speed too. It's time consuming, but it makes all the difference. You bury these things that you're transcribing deep into your mind and your subconcious. And that's where it should stay, until it surfaces as something original in your own playing and sound.

2. It doesn't matter that there are only 24 hrs in the day. How do you think Trane came up with those solos for all of us to transcribe? he was in the shed! all day, every day. It's a life-long commitment, and something that you have to be totally focussed on to get to the next level. If you're going to do it, and you love what you do, then work as hard as you possibly can. Put in 10hrs a day if you really want to get the most out of what you're doing.

This doesn't aply to everyone of course. people have to make their own decision as to how much they want to invest in the music. I made the decision to sign my life away to it, which is on one extreme end of the spectrum. That doesn't suit everyone, and cats can get just as much out of music as the next person by setting their own goals and being happy with that.

There is a balance that I try to strike. But it's not between transcribing, learning to play the stuff and sheddign chops. All that has to come under one category. I'm trying to strike a balance between being home and being on the road, time spent between trumpet, bass, piano and guitar, time spent with my family and friends. All the things in the rest of my life are very important and I'm very concious of not neglecting them.

Although some of that might not have an immediate connection with the physical aspect of playing the bass, it's a very important part of life that will help your music. Concentrate you focus away from the music and the music will become more focused.

I rarely transcribe a complete solo these days. I started out with about 200 complete solos in the first few years of transcribing. Now I find small phrases that interest me, that I can take and develope and make my own. This is very important for creating your own voice. Don't just stop at learning these peoples music, take it and make it your own. Build your own ideas and vocabulary from what you are taking from all these records.

I hope that covered your points. Let me know if you want me to add anything further.

Easy,

Janek

 

[musicman5string]

That's amazing Janek, and truly inspiring as well.

May I ask what your chronology of developement in music was? I.E., what did you start on and at what age, and what came next, etc. Who did you study with?

I'm looking forward to hearing you play with Stern in August. I've seen him play many times with Jeff Andrews, Lincoln Goines, and Harvie Swartz and haven't seen him in awhile.

Cheers.

 

[musicman5string]

Also, I noticed from previous posts of yours that at one time you were selling a Wal bass. Did you end up selling it or do you still have it? Because I'd be more than interested in it....

 

[user3653753]

I started studying classical guitar at the age of 11. at the same time I started studying drums/orchestral percussion. This was at a local music school (Merton Music Foundation) where I lived in South London. I studied with Peter Woodings who was then, and is to this day, the classical guitar teacher there. He was incredible in getting me to practice the right way and helped my technique more than anything. I owe a lot to him.

As far as bass teachers go it has been pretty light on actualy one-to-one teachers.

I was inspired to play the bass by a Welsh bass player named Laurence Cottle. He's a monster bass player and really great human being. I saw him in a pub one sunday lunchtime in London and decided that was what I wanted to do for the rest of my life. I went out and bought a bass and hit the shed. I haven't stopped ever since. That was in about 1995 as far as I remember. We lived close to each other and he took me to all his gigs. I used to record them all on a small tape recorder and then, when he dropped me home after the gig, would transcribe all the stuff on the tapes and learn it note for note. This was a great basis for trying to build my own sound upon. I also studied briefly with Geoff Gascoyne (now bass player with Jamie Cullum) who is a great bass player and has become a fantastic friend over the years. I was forced to study acoustic bass when I was at the Royal Academy of Music and took lessons with Jeff Clyne briefly. When I was at Berklee I studied with Fernando Huergo, but that was for a very brief time and only 30mins per week.

Most of my study has been on my own, or jamming with some of the greatest musicians I can find at any given time.

I had a great teacher at Berklee for a year named Hal Crook. I would highly reccommend any of his books. "how to improvise", "how to comp", "ready, aim, improvise" and he just told me he has a new one coming out. He is one of the greatest teachers in the world. His student list includes: Danilo Perez, Roy Hargrove, Kurt Rosenwinkel, Abe Laboriel Jr., Matthew Garrison, Mark Turner, Seamus Blake, Scott Kinsey..... If you don't know one of these cats on the list, you need to check them all out! then check out Hal's records and realize where a high percentage of the NYC jazz scene is coming from. It's quite incredible.

About the Wal.... I think the one I was selling that was mentioned in a thread on TB was a fretless one that I sold. I do have another one at home which I'm thinking about selling...... It's a custom 5 string. drop me an email at [email protected] if you're interested in taking a look at it.....

Easy,

Janek

 

[KuMBye YamALaWd]

Janek, just wanted to say "Thanks" for taking the time to reply to my original post so thouroughly ....inspiring stuff, indeed!

Your words have prompted me to question my time-management (which was already fairly questionable ) and also re-affirmed for me that transcription + playing-of-transcription is ALWAYS time well spent!

..AND that one gets back out of the music what one puts into it, time-wise especially!


~Kim

..

 

[Yvon]

I've been in a rut lately, and reading this thread made me think about starting to transcribe again. I used to do it a few years ago.

I started with real easy song (another brick in the wall, borwn eye girl) and slowmy more to more complex songs.
Anybody can do it

 

[emjazz]

Janek, would you suggest taking passages that you've transcribed and playing them in different keys or do you feel that it's enough to just spend that time transcribing new things?

 

[user3653753]

I think you would get a lot out of moving things around into different keys that you transcribe. I certainly have, and have tried to put all those lines in my subcocious as much as possible so that they may surface in any key. The luxury of being a fretted, stringed instrument player is that you can move things around with ease. Much harder on a piano or wind instrument.

Easy,

Janek

 

[emjazz]

I think you would get a lot out of moving things around into different keys that you transcribe. I certainly have, and have tried to put all those lines in my subcocious as much as possible so that they may surface in any key. The luxury of being a fretted, stringed instrument player is that you can move things around with ease. Much harder on a piano or wind instrument.

Easy,

Janek

Thanks. I appreciate your thoughts. That helps.

 

[soholounge]

hey Janek,
LOVE your playing.

one more question about transcribing...
are you equally comfortable with bass clef vs. treble?
(i'm guessing yes)
but which do you prefer? when transcribing, do you choose bass/treble depending on which instrument you're transcribing from?
or do you gravitate towards treble (because you're sitting at the piano), etc...

just wondering,
because i'm always struggling with stuff written in bass clef (i'm more comfortable with treble because i studied formally on sax before i switched to bass)
but am i hurting myself by sticking with treble when doing transcription?

peace,
-paul

 

[ryanowens]

hey Janek,
LOVE your playing.

one more question about transcribing...
are you equally comfortable with bass clef vs. treble?
(i'm guessing yes)
but which do you prefer? when transcribing, do you choose bass/treble depending on which instrument you're transcribing from?
or do you gravitate towards treble (because you're sitting at the piano), etc...

just wondering,
because i'm always struggling with stuff written in bass clef (i'm more comfortable with treble because i studied formally on sax before i switched to bass)
but am i hurting myself by sticking with treble when doing transcription?

peace,
-paul

Janek, I'd like to know this too. I am actually in the middle of transcribing my first tune and I am doing it in treble clef.

I am more comfortable in bass clef but I'm thinking this will help me to be able to read in both.

This one is taking a while but I hope as I do more I will be able to transcribe faster.

Thanks again Janek!

 

[user3653753]

I do all the transcriptions in the treble cleff normally. unless there's a particularly low part of the solo, or it's a walking bass line.

I was a classical guitar player before I was a bass player so I'm very comfortable reading in all clefs actually. I studied alto and tenor clef for a while too, reading classical scores, and I also read Bb and Eb parts and transpose at sight into concert to keep my reading chops together.

Easy,

Janek

 

[sk8terguy316]

By the way, Janek, I know you reccomend Hal Crook, but what do you think of Carol Kaye's jazz teaching materials? This is what I own, they are a study on chordal tones and popular jazz sax/piano phrasings of bop music in the 50's. Things that classic players used. It is not based off of scales and modes, but chords and phrasings/substitutions. She transcribes phrasings used by Charlie Parker, Sonyy stitt, Hampton Hawes, Joe Pass and many other great jazz soloists. (Plus I plan to do some transcribing of my own)

 

[Gyoon]

Sorry to revive an old thread, but I have a question regarding transcribing software. I find it helpful to hear certain passages at half speed. Is this something that you ever did/ recommend? I do it on a regular basis, but am afraid that it might hurt me somewhere down the road.

Glenn

 

[RobinBetton]

i don't know if any of you mentioned this but having the goal being to internalize the solo during transcription being able to SING the solo along with the record then WITHOUT it playing helps a hell of a lot. I know this is a method used by ran blake and sooooo many other players. it has worked best for me. I remember a time when i used to sit down with the instrument and try to figure out solos note for note but now i can accurately transcribe. Solfege helps. if the sound is in your head and you want it bad enough it will come out!

 

[DocBop]

i don't know if any of you mentioned this but having the goal being to internalize the solo during transcription being able to SING the solo along with the record then WITHOUT it playing helps a hell of a lot. I know this is a method used by ran blake and sooooo many other players. it has worked best for me. I remember a time when i used to sit down with the instrument and try to figure out solos note for note but now i can accurately transcribe. Solfege helps. if the sound is in your head and you want it bad enough it will come out!

+10 To that!

I can't sing worth a dam and would shy away, but once I realized I'm singing for myself not an audience I discovered a great tool. Helps with remembering songs, helps with phrasing and great for ear training. Now I try singing everything I learn scales/modes, arpeggios, basslines, heads to tunes. I sit and listen to music and sing what I would play. When I sing or hear a lick I like I try to figure it out in my head, then check myself with the bass. It is helping all aspects of my playing.

As for solfege I can't do that I lose track of the syllables and start sing right note, but wrong sylable. I don't want to screw up the pitch to solfge relation so I leave solfege to ear training practice. For non-ET I use the old doo-ba doo-bee doo-bop da-dit's.

 

[RobinBetton]

yeah getting the syllables mixed up sucks....especially when you're graded on it ( MINUS TEN POINTS FOR RIGHT PITCH WRONG SYLLABLE) yeahh ummmm sounds funny and stupid but not in class.

 

[user3653753]

I really wouldn't use any software for slowing things down at all. I never did. I thought about it, but never had the money or the computer to do it, so I just kept hitting the rewind button on my tape player over and over again.

The more you can train your ears naturally the better off you're going to be. we are dealing with the same 12 notes at the next person when it comes to transcribing solos, and there is such a huge amount of common ground in the language that you should be able to recognize things no matter how fast they're flying by.

You'll begin to see shapes and patterns in solos, and then be able to relate that all over your instrument and through your ear. Making transcribing "new" solos a heck of a lot easier.

Easy,

Janek