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turning your speakers around...

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by ardorx, Oct 28, 2004.


  1. ardorx

    ardorx

    Sep 23, 2004
    Sugar Land, TX
    I have a Genz-Benz Ls410, and I'm wondering would it make a difference in the sound if I turned the speakers around in the cabinet. If any of you know anything about this, please let me know. Thanks
     
  2. WayneP

    WayneP

    Oct 11, 2004
    Katy, Texas
    Well, you’ll have to ditch the grill, but I guess you figured that out.

    There should be little if any difference, especially if you reverse the polarity (i.e., so that the cone moves forward with the signal).

    By the way, the horn won’t work too well turned around... :D

    Regards,
    Wayne A. Pflughaupt
     
  3. ardorx

    ardorx

    Sep 23, 2004
    Sugar Land, TX
    Thanks man. I'm just looking for things to do to get a "deeper" sound without getting another extension cab. Anyone have any ideas?
     
  4. WayneP

    WayneP

    Oct 11, 2004
    Katy, Texas
    If you have enough in reserve on both the amp and cabinet side (i.e., you’re not running either of them near their limits) a parametric equalizer might be the ticket. You can set a filter for about 1/4 - 1/3-octave wide, boost about 6dB and sweep the frequency setting from say, 30Hz and up until you hit the “sweet spot” you’re looking for. Then you can further fine-tune the bandwidth and boost.

    Regards,
    Wayne A. Pflughaupt
     
  5. You'll effectively be increasing the size of the cab, because now rather than losing volume to the speaker, it'll sit outside the cab and you'll get a shade extra because of the cone too, depending how you do it.

    Whether that'll do much I'm not real sure, it'd depend on the size of the speakers and the cab but I think you'll get more low end response because of the larger cab. How much it'll change things, I'm not real sure, you could run a simulation with some speaker software, if you can find all the t/s parameters for the speaker, and that'll give you a bit more of an idea.

    Wayne's idea would work also, I think thats essentially the idea behind the Linkwitz-Riley circuit thingy...

    Josh D
     
  6. ardorx

    ardorx

    Sep 23, 2004
    Sugar Land, TX
    I think I'm going to go ahead and try Waynes idea and get an equalizer. Thanks
     
  7. WayneP

    WayneP

    Oct 11, 2004
    Katy, Texas
    [font=comic sans ms,verdana,arial]
    Josh is right, I forgot to account for the fact that moving the speaker’s “guts” outside the cabinet would essentially increase the size of the cabinet, which theoretically should increase bass response. But as Josh also noted, it’s anyone’s guess as to whether or not it would be enough of an increase to make an audible difference. It’s also a big question mark if the increase (assuming there would be some) would be where you want it.

    To re-iterate about the equalizer, you definitely want a parametric EQ, not a graphic. A graphic is an “in the ball park” tone shaping device, while a parametric manipulates frequency response with surgical precision.

    I suggest a used Rane PE-15 for your application – you can regularly pick them up on eBay for under $75. It only has a couple of filters that will cover the low bass frequencies, but for what you’re trying to do that’s more than enough. You might even find a use for some of the higher filters, like to help your notes up in the second octave cut through the mix. I have a parametric EQ in my rack and I love it. I’ll never be without one again.

    Regards,
    Wayne A. Pflughaupt
    [/font]
     
  8. ardorx

    ardorx

    Sep 23, 2004
    Sugar Land, TX
    Awesome man. I'm going to go check out e-bay right now. I'll let you know what i can find. Around Christmas, I'm probably going to build my own cab. I think it's probably going to be a 1x15 extension cab to go with my 4x10. I might try reversing the speaker there. I don't know. But thanks.
     
  9. ardorx

    ardorx

    Sep 23, 2004
    Sugar Land, TX
    Another thing, I know this is off topic, but, is there any way i could put a behringer bx3000 in a rack? It's not a rack mount head, but its built into its own little cuccoon rack thing. :hyper:
     
  10. K Dubbs

    K Dubbs Just graduated from OSU, Go Bucks!

    Mar 16, 2002
    Toledo, Ohio
    keep in mind that the weight of the cab will be sorely unbalanced after you do this. Magnets usually accoutn for betwee a third and half the cab's total weight. using the handles to move an inverted speaker cab will bend your wrist quite a bit. you'll have to drill holes for the speaker wires too
     
  11. WayneP

    WayneP

    Oct 11, 2004
    Katy, Texas
    [font=comic sans ms,verdana,arial]
    As long as it’s 17” wide or less, you could bolt it to a rack-mounted shelf.

    I hope this isn’t what’s powering your Genz-Benz cabinet. If so you’d better ditch the equalizer idea – it doesn’t have enough power. You’ll get the bass boost alright, but the tradeoff will be less volume.

    Regards,
    Wayne A. Pflughaupt
    [/font]
     
  12. ardorx

    ardorx

    Sep 23, 2004
    Sugar Land, TX
    yes, sadly this is whats powering my GB. What would be a head you would reccomend getting?
     
  13. ardorx

    ardorx

    Sep 23, 2004
    Sugar Land, TX
    BTW Wayne, i noticed you live in Katy....I live right down the road in Sugar Land. :bassist:
     
  14. A9X

    A9X

    Dec 27, 2003
    Sinny, Oztraya
    Turning the speakers around so that the magnet assembly is at the front will,
    - get you a slightly larger box volume as you remove the space taken by the driver inside the box, plus add the 'front' cone volume to the box. Depending on the box design and tuning this may make a difference, but hardly likely to make a significant difference to the low frequency performance.
    - speaker will be exposed and may not fit behind the grille
    - likely make the box unbalanced and awkward to move
    - reduce the high frequecy response of the driver as the smaller, centre sections of the cone will be shadowed by the magnet assembly.

    All in all, probably a waste of time, and not likely to get the result you're looking for. Buy a bigger or extension cab.
     
  15. ardorx

    ardorx

    Sep 23, 2004
    Sugar Land, TX
    Thanks, I plan on making my own 1x15 (probably just buying) around christmas time. I like the tone i get, but sometimes I feel it's not deep enough.
     
  16. WayneP

    WayneP

    Oct 11, 2004
    Katy, Texas
    [font=comic sans ms,verdana,arial]ardorx,

    Nice to see another local here!

    My apologies, I misread your post about the amp – I ended up looking at a BX300 at Behringer’s site, not the BX3000, so forget what I said before. As long as you’re not running the amp anywhere near full volume, you’ll have good luck with a parametric EQ.

    Regarding mounting the BX3000 in a rack, just so happens another Forum member recently asked the same question, and someone passed on this link for info on that:

    http://www.rockabillybass.com/discus/messages/5/4779.html?1093551375

    Regards,
    Wayne A. Pflughaupt
    [/font]
     
  17. ardorx

    ardorx

    Sep 23, 2004
    Sugar Land, TX
    Wayne, as a matter of fact, I JUST was reading that other link about rackmounting it. I'm not running it near full volume, I think I will try the equalizer idea. This is my idea for a rack.
    (top to bottom)
    furman
    korg dtr-2000 tuner
    parametric eq.
    behringer.

    what do you think?
     
  18. WayneP

    WayneP

    Oct 11, 2004
    Katy, Texas
    [font=comic sans ms,verdana,arial] It looks like a pretty good plan from an equipment standpoint. You can connect the EQ across the effects loop.

    From a functional standpoint, the Behginger only has front-panel connections for the effects loop and line out, so that means you’ll have cables passing back and forth between the front and back of the rack. Personally that kind of stuff bugs me – I prefer the clean appearance you get with all-rear panel connections. But you might not be as “anal” about that as I am.

    The only thing I might throw out from an equipment perspective – do you really need all the bells and whistles you get with the DTR-2000, like tone generating, Hertz display, built-in mic, etc.?

    If not you might want to try to find a Furman PL-Tuner and get your tuner, rack lighting and power center all in one chassis. They’re discontinued, but you can still find some on-line vendors that have them around, generally for less than what the Korg sells for by itself. If you can score a PL-Tuner on eBay you’ll really clean house. You’ll save not only money, but rack “real estate” that you could use later for a wireless receiver, compressor, effects processor, etc.

    I’ve had a PL-Tuner for a few years now and have been very happy with it. I couldn’t see “burning” a whole rack space for a tuner (seeing as how small my Boss TU-70 is), so it made perfect sense for me. It’s reportedly as accurate as the Korg and gets the job done just fine, unless you like to tune to 1/4 steps or something like that.

    This might not matter to you, but my only “beef” with the PL was that it only had front panel connections. I wanted a rear panel input for the tuner, so I ordered one of the isolated jacks from Furman and wired it into the front jack.

    Regards,
    Wayne A. Pflughaupt
    [/font]
     
  19. ardorx

    ardorx

    Sep 23, 2004
    Sugar Land, TX
    Thanks for your input. You see, the thing is, my friend has the tuner, and he said he will sell it to me for 175. But I really like the idea of the Furman. I think I'm going to look into that.

    Yeah, I don't like the idea of how the Behringer is only front output. but yea, I gotta go to my next class. so I'm out
     
  20. 4Mal

    4Mal Supporting Member

    Jun 2, 2002
    Columbia River Gorge
    Geeze - If your going to add a Parametric, just grab one that has an instrument level in and enough gain to drive a power amp. A Rane (PE-15 ?) Or maybe an ART Tube Channel, Preamp compressor (that's my choice in a Bass Pre). Dump the B-unit and grab a small QSC or Crown. Now you have enough power for about anything you want to do ... I picked up my Crown CE-1000 for about 250 in the GFS here. 275 / side into 8 and 1100 bridged into 4 is more than enough for my needs.

    No then - reversing the speakers in your cab ? If I understand what you are trying to do I'd have to so a very big NO! Magnet's & wire hanging out the front ? I'm seeing 4 broken driver's after the first couple of move ins/outs. The cab was designed a certain way and you really should leave it 'stock'. Mod the signal going to the cab to get it to do what you want. You already figured that out from the posts about I gather.

    If you are using this setup live. In large rooms with PA support for the bass, you're going to end up dialing out a lot of the bottom that you are trying to achieve at the moment. Those big sweet bass tones that you hear from your cabinet when you are in a 20 ft square room turn to mud about 40 feet away. You'll drive a sound guy nuts with any volume at all.

    That is all assuming that you are in a band setting and not a Michael Manring, solo bass looping kind of thing of course. More often than not, in a live setting I've got the bass dialed out, low mids up, hi mids and treble down a bit on stage.

    I'd rather have the comment of great sounding band, than great sounding bass, to bad about the mix though ... I've probably taken this to an extreme, but at this point on the few live dates that I do, I'm running either 1 or 2 single 15's as side stage at a pretty low volume and relying on the FOH guy to do his job. I'm not out front after all... he is