Twist on a common thread

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by BassDude24, Mar 15, 2001.

  1. BassDude24


    Sep 12, 2000
    I have seen way to many posts from people not knowing what amp to get, no offense to them and I give them all the help that I can, but I have a question more than a plee. I just can't see buying an amp without playing it, because I have a feeling that some people on here just order the stuff online and just hope that it sounds good.

    I was wondering, I have always played through 15" speakers, I have three right now. But I never really tried getting 10" speakers, a lot of people are saying that the 10" will "cut through" better. To me that sounds like the high end is coming through really well, but what about the low end, can you get a really good "low tone" out of them that will permiate through? Like the kind of low end that will vibrate your balls instead of grab them by the scrotum and rattle them around. Could someone help me out???
  2. Gabu


    Jan 2, 2001
    Woodland Hills, CA
    My simplified understanding of it is:

    in a 1x15 you have 176 squared inches

    in a 1x10 you have 78.5 squared inches.

    If you played one against the other, the 15 should handle the lows better.

    in a 2x10 you now have 157 squared inches.

    So a 2x10 should be able to handle the lows pretty close to as well as the 15.

    in a 4x10 you now have 314 squared inches.

    So a 4x10 seems to have twice the surface area pushing air than the 1x15. It would seem to follow that assuming that the cabs and speakers were of equal quality design, the 4x10 should be superior.

    Another item that some people like is that the 10s being smaller are able to perform their vibration quicker, hence faster response of your playing.
  3. BassDude24


    Sep 12, 2000
    Thanks man, that made a lot of sense, one of my 15" speakers is dying on me and I was looking at replacing it with a 4x10, now I am going to have to seriously look into it. Only delema is cash, I can get a replacement speaker for a lot less than a new 4x10 cab.
  4. Basing response on speaker surface area might be a little too simplified...

    The cabinet involved will make more difference generally than the speakers loaded (not all the time, but generally).
    Take an Ampeg svt410h -vs- an Ampeg svt410hln - apart from different impedances, it's the cabinet of the HLN that allows a far lower bass response.
    Heck, i've got a 15" hifonics sub that you can't hear A THING on (even @ full volume) with the speaker out of the box. Pop it in different boxes and you get a different bass response every time.

    I did some internet searching once and found a site describing a bassists' attempt at getting a decent response from a single speaker. His 1x10" cabinet apparently kicked nicely. Can't remember the site, though :(

    If I compare my 1x15 (or even my 1x15 + another 1x15) to my 410hln, the 410 wins EVERY time. It goes well low, and provides the punch and clarity that 15's always lack (to a certain degree).
  5. On an opposite note, i have never played through a 4x10 cabinet that I felt provided the same low end feeling that a 1x15 does (or even better, a 2x15). 4x10's just don't have the oomph that 15's provide. I think a lot of people don't realize because they never get far enough away from their cabinet to actually hear what's coming out. An 8x10, that's a different story though. Don't know why, but 8x10 cabinets always sound better than 2 4x10's.
  6. It's probably the baffles per pair that keep the sound even on an 810 (in the case of an SVT...)

    Give one of the Ampeg svt410hlf/hln's a go one day - quite surprising for a 410, significantly more low end than any other 410 I tried (GK, Ampeg, etc). The drawback? Size & weight - the cabinet is somewhat deeper and higher (3 x reflex tubes under the 10's).
  7. ka-tet


    May 2, 2000
    I believe some people view this subject from the wrong perspective. I've played through 410's that had a frequency rating that went very low and was supposedly flat. Now when compared to a 15 that didn't go quite as low, to my ears the 15 still sounded deeper. Why is this? Here's my thoughts. I think with a 410 you get a more complete representation of the frequency spectrum but with the human ear able to and more willing to listen to the mid and upper frequencies, those frequencies get emphasized and are dominant. In a 15, what with it's inabilty to truely reproduce the upper mids and treble frequencies you get an emphasis on the lower tones thus putting out a percieved deeper, rounder sound. Try this: if you plug your bass into an amp with a 410 and leave the EQ flat but boost the mids and highs, your tone instantly has less bottom though you didn't turn down the bass knob. Now if you leave everything flat but turn the treble and mid range knobs down you get an instantly deeper tone without adding extra low end with the bass control. This is kind of how I see the difference in tone from a 410 and a 15.
  8. BassDude24


    Sep 12, 2000
    So, looking at all of the posts, and all of the info/different points of views I am in "scientific understanding" that a 4x10 and a 1x15 combo would be a good idea, the 4x10 would project the highs while alowing the 15 to poop out the lows.

    I think I have an idea, I will get some sort of monster 8x10, and one more 15, that way I will have an 8x10 and four 1x15's. Now all I need are some amps to run them, it will be more like a bass PA than an amp. Ah, bliss.

    I am glad that I put this up, cause I didn't want to get a bunch of people just saying "I think this sounds better..." Now we have some sort of "scientific" reasoning behind all of our beliefs.
  9. MikeyD


    Sep 9, 2000
    Well, I don't really think there's much science in this thread. This subject is very complex, and unless you have a college degree in acoustics (or the equivalent), it's hard to really get to the "bottom" (pun intended?) of it. Not to disrespect anyone, but this stuff is very difficult and really not as simple as measuring woofer diameters or areas of cones. You might also be interested in my thread on "Throw" of Bass From a Cabinet (Long Summary), started 12/29/2000, in which a modest bit of science is discussed.
    - Mike
  10. eric atkinson

    eric atkinson "Is our children learning "Is our teachers teachin

    Feb 4, 2001
    I know its a pain in the asss but you should have a 4-10 and a 15! I had a old ampeg 15 for years and finally got some extra cash and got a swr 4-10 goliath and the added diff is so great i cant imagine using just one! But it makes for a real pain to take them both to shows!
  11. =^..^=


    Jan 25, 2001
    Stuck on a rock !
    I've seen lots of opinions offered in the 15" vs 10" drivers relating to surface area figures - (this is a question and not a correction to anything I have read) - does the frequency response of the driver have anything to do with how its going to sound ?

    The Celestion site (I picked on this one 'cos its British :D) quotes frequency ranges of 70Hz - 5kHz for their 10" speakers and a range of 40Hz - 4kHz for their 15" speakers. A reasonable assumption would be that below 70hz with a 10" driver you will get a reduction in the ability of the speaker to reproduce the sound accurately - or a fall off in response as the frequency drops below 70hz.

    Middle C is 440hz, and low c on a four string is 2 octaves beneath that (110hz), so bottom E is going to be somewhere around 70hz. If you use a 5 string (with a low B) you have frequencies of under 55hz - so how is a 10" driver going to handle that ?

    And thats before we get into a drivers resonant frequency...

    This isn't a criticism of anything I've read or seen - its just me on my search for how things work.

    I think the best description of the bass sound I want is one that "glides along the floor - up womens legs and vibrates their CENSORED"

    My Akai will do an octave below low E - what would that be ? 35 hz or thereabout ? For the record I run a 4*10" and 1*15" - you don't really hear the octaved E - it just kinda steamrollers everything in its path... balls included !
  12. But with ultra-low frequencies (such as a low-B), aren't we hearing the harmonic component of the note, and our brains are filling in the rest? That was my understanding of why speakers *seem* to deliver frequencies below what they're capable of.

    Your Akai will do 35Hz? My Octave Cat SRM will do 5Hz! Rrrrrr! :D
  13. =^..^=


    Jan 25, 2001
    Stuck on a rock !
    5 HZ - WOW, that must be like SouthPark and the "Brown Noise".

    The Akai is an effects pedal tho' not a synth, so it tracks my bass playing rather than needing a K**board !

    Your probably right about your brain filling in the bits it doesn't hear. Its an incredible thing your brain !
  14. Bassdude, I live in NYC and have all my life, so trying out amps was never more than a short subway ride away. I think a lot of other guys aren't as lucky and that's why they ask here at the forum. As we all know, an amp that I like may not sound so good to you. In the end, you gotta hear it live!

    MikeyD, I thought I knew it all about theory, but just recently got clipped by some other members, but, hey if you can't learn from your mistakes that's pretty bad. You are soo right.Speaker theory is like trying to figure out a woman.

    No offense to any ladies present.

    Mike J.
  15. MikeyD


    Sep 9, 2000
    I don't know all the theory, either, even after 6-7 years in engineering school! What's important is a willingness to learn and keep an open mind, and also taking care not to portray something as fact unless you're really sure (or else "qualify" it somehow - such as saying, "as I recall", or "if I'm not mistaken", or "if I understand your question", etc.). There are always people out there who are smarter (than any of us!) and will catch our errors.
    Well, speaker theory can be done scientifically. Figuring out people, on the other hand - hmm - not so *easy*! :)
    - Mike
  16. MikeyD


    Sep 9, 2000
    Nice, page, Reid. I saved it to my disk for future reference. Please "note" that the speed of sound (and therefore the wavelength) of a pitch varies slightly with temperature. Speed of sound in air (celerity) increases with the square root of absolute temperature (Kelvin or Rankine). For music situations at "normal" temperatures, I usually approximate wavelength by dividing 1130 by the frequency (Hz.) to get the length in feet.

    - Mike

    P.S.: Your link corrects an earlier post about C being at 440 Hz. "A-440" is the standard pitch/frequency.
  17. =^..^=


    Jan 25, 2001
    Stuck on a rock !
    MikeyD - apologies for my earlier post about C being 440 - duuh - what the hell was I thinking about ??

    At leats my slpelings is ok these days...
  18. I.'.I.'.Nakoa

    I.'.I.'.Nakoa Guest

    Aug 10, 2000
    Fort Worth.
    how many square inches or whatever would 412s cover?!
  19. Oysterman


    Mar 30, 2000