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Using 2 212s

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by Lazarus.Bird, Sep 13, 2010.


  1. Lazarus.Bird

    Lazarus.Bird Mr. Personality

    Aug 16, 2010
    Pittsburgh
    So soon I'll be running 2 212 cabs, and I've thought of several ways of doing this. One is to vertically stack them. I'm 6'5" and having some of the air being pushed closer to my head will be nice for hearing myself.

    I've also tossed around the idea of putting one 212 under (or on top of) each of my guitarists' cabs (see how many people I can confuse by not having a cab stack behind me...). Under seems like it makes more sense, as there's contact with the ground and such, but that's just me making blind assumptions. Putting them on top might work as well, or even placing them vertical on each guitar cab. Might project the sound better?

    Anyways, I'd appreciate any advice on this. I have no idea if any of this would actually have any functional difference (not sure if one cab can affect another?). I'd like to know if there would be any negative outcomes from these scenarios.
     
  2. billfitzmaurice

    billfitzmaurice Commercial User

    Sep 15, 2004
    New Hampshire
    Owner, Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design
    Vertically stacked is the only way to go. Never split cabs. If you need to spread the mids about better aim the lower cab towards the opposite side of the stage.
     
  3. Mo'Phat

    Mo'Phat Supporting Member

    Oct 1, 2003
    San Diego, CA, USA
    Sonically - you're better off keeping your cabs together, for the reasons Bill says.

    Practically - you're better off keeping control of your setup and tear down all to yourself so you don't have to wait for the guitar players to move their amps off your cabs.
     
  4. Lazarus.Bird

    Lazarus.Bird Mr. Personality

    Aug 16, 2010
    Pittsburgh
    We play a lot of shows where only vocals and maybe some drums are mic'd. I thought maybe putting a cab with each guitar rig might spread out the low end some.

    Not that I disagree with what you're saying bill, but could you please elaborate on why you should never split cabs?
     
  5. RickenBoogie

    RickenBoogie

    Jul 22, 2007
    Dallas, TX
    Phasing, for one, but also, bass is omni-directional, so it'll fill the room no matter.
     
  6. billfitzmaurice

    billfitzmaurice Commercial User

    Sep 15, 2004
    New Hampshire
    Owner, Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design
    http://billfitzmaurice.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=398

    This applies to bass cabs as well as subs.
     
  7. frankieg

    frankieg

    Jun 24, 2008
    Cleveland, OH
    Hartke
    I've learned you can take what Bill says to the bank! There's a ton of science and physics involved in elaborating. Here is a sound wave interference app that will give you a visual of what happens when you split your bass speakers. You can plug in any frequency you want and I think you can model up to about 22 feet apart.

    http://www.falstad.com/interference/

    Here is some reading for you on the destructive (such as separating bass speakers), as well as constructive (clustering bass speakers), sound wave interferences.

    http://dev.physicslab.org/Document.aspx?doctype=3&filename=WavesSound_BasicWaveInterference.xml
     
  8. Lazarus.Bird

    Lazarus.Bird Mr. Personality

    Aug 16, 2010
    Pittsburgh
    Thanks for all the info guys! So when the big time bass players use multiple 810s do they always keep them together and not put them on opposite sides of the drum kit? Or should I say it's how they SHOULD do it?
     
  9. frankieg

    frankieg

    Jun 24, 2008
    Cleveland, OH
    Hartke
    I did some road dates as a fill in and it was already in the rider that there was to be two 8x10's and two heads for the bass player. This guy liked a symmetrical looking stage setup. I can say the rig opposite stage of me was plugged in but not being used. I know guys do all kinds of things to look different. Believe me when I say that presentation is a big part of what you see sometimes and doesn't mean that it's functional.
     
  10. billfitzmaurice

    billfitzmaurice Commercial User

    Sep 15, 2004
    New Hampshire
    Owner, Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design
    They should have them vertically stacked. But the percentage of bass players, big time or otherwise, who are also acoustical engineers is quite small, so following their example isn't always the best idea.
     
  11. NateS

    NateS

    Sep 22, 2009
    Richmond, VA, USA
    i think this is a super good read, and very informative.

    would this apply to the standard fridge type cabs, 8x10s 4x12, 2x15s? Surely having 2 8x10s next to each other won't add too much of a difference, or in a case like that they wouldn't be hampered by splitting them on the stage?I'm just trying to pick your brain because i'm curious. How would they be hampered if they are?

    surely vertically stacking 2 8x10s are unfeasible, unless you lay them down, then it defeats the purpose of stacking them?
     
  12. frankieg

    frankieg

    Jun 24, 2008
    Cleveland, OH
    Hartke
    It applies more to frequencies and sound waves period, rather than specific speaker cabs. Check out Bill's link and the links that I posted above and it will explain a lot!
     
  13. DavePlaysBass

    DavePlaysBass

    Mar 31, 2004
    CO
    The 810s should be stacked vertically :bag:
     
  14. NateS

    NateS

    Sep 22, 2009
    Richmond, VA, USA
    i understnad how it works in a scientific view, but i'm thinking in a practical view - how cna i USE this info to make the sound the best? is it still a practical change in coupling 2 sets of lots of speakers, 2 8x10s, or are the clusters os 8 already enough that a cluster of 16 isn't going to make a difference in volume? is it better to stack vertically, so it's 2 across and 16 up? or 4 and 8? obvious 2 and 16 isn't very feasible, but it is the best?

    just curious about practical uses of this interesting scientific knowledge from people who have much more experence.
     
  15. billfitzmaurice

    billfitzmaurice Commercial User

    Sep 15, 2004
    New Hampshire
    Owner, Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design
    Practically speaking no one needs more than an 8x10. That's why they invented the PA. If you really must use more than that and you want the best result possible they should be vertically stacked. Reference Phil Lesh and the Dead's Wall of Sound.
    Doing so will halve the midrange dispersion. And since an 8x10 already has tens placed side by side, halving the dispersion compared to a vertical line of tens, it's not like one can really afford to do so.
     
  16. Lazarus.Bird

    Lazarus.Bird Mr. Personality

    Aug 16, 2010
    Pittsburgh
    Does the same apply to guitars, or no because of the shorter wavelengths they produce? Pretty sure I've seen Dinosaur Jr have 3 810s for one guitarist D:
     
  17. NateS

    NateS

    Sep 22, 2009
    Richmond, VA, USA
    interesting. how would 45'ing them, in a V as your aticle suggested, help to fix dispersion? an sealed 8x10 doesn't have a horn (if i'm assuming correctly what a horn is), so i'm not sure
     
  18. billfitzmaurice

    billfitzmaurice Commercial User

    Sep 15, 2004
    New Hampshire
    Owner, Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design
    It all comes down to wavelengths. You either want driver centers separated by less than 1 wavelength at the highest frequency they produce or by more than 2 wavelengths at the lowest. With guitar the highest wavelength, at about 4kHz, is about 3 inches long, so placing drivers side by side can't do anything but result in severe beaming. OTOH in the low end they don't do much below 150Hz, where two wavelengths is about 15 feet, so splitting guitar cabs to help overcome that beaming is useful. Not as useful as having the drivers in their cabs vertical, but that's part of why we call them guitar'd players.

    With bass the longest wavelengths are around 20 feet long, so splitting cabs is a really bad idea. The shortest wavelengths coming out of the woofers are about six inches long, and that's why side by side drivers are a design flaw in bass cabs as well. Not as bad as in guitar cabs, but still not right.

    Not perfect, but much better.
     
  19. Lazarus.Bird

    Lazarus.Bird Mr. Personality

    Aug 16, 2010
    Pittsburgh
    [​IMG]

    Again, much appreciation for the patience and knowledge bill :>
     
  20. NateS

    NateS

    Sep 22, 2009
    Richmond, VA, USA
    a huge +1!

    sorry to hijack the thread, BTW - think of it an an expanded answer... ha
     
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