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Using a 1x12 in combination with a 1x10

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by john-boro, Mar 7, 2010.


  1. john-boro

    john-boro

    May 8, 2009
    Hi all,

    I have a GB Shuttle 3.0 combo with the 1x10 cab. It sounds great, and I'd like to add a second cab so I can get the full 300 watts. Naturally I'm looking at the GB STL, and I'm trying to decide between the 10 inch and 12 inch extensions. Would the 12 give me a bit more low end, or would it be more advantageous to have two speakers of exactly the same size?

    Cheers

    John
     
  2. Jaco who?

    Jaco who?

    May 20, 2008
    Usually the size of the box will have more to do with tone than the size of the driver, usually, because the tuning of the box will effect it too, sometimes, but not always, depending on whether it makes the driver fart out sooner than it would if it was tuned lower, ETC, ETC, ETC, AHHHHHHHHH!

    Some will inevitably chime in about the perils of different drivers causing phase cancellation with certain unpredictable frequencies, so you're darned if you do and darned if you don't.

    Go play a buncha' different cabs with your combo and buy the one that sounds the best.
     
  3. billfitzmaurice

    billfitzmaurice Commercial User

    Sep 15, 2004
    New Hampshire
    Owner, Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design
    There's no way of knowing. Frequency response and speaker size aren't directly related, and like every manufacturer GB doesn't publish useful specs that you can use for meaningful comparisons. But if you like what the ten does for you then you'll like what two do even more.
     
  4. sk8

    sk8

    May 10, 2007
    United Kingdom
    i used a 112 neox with my 3.0 combo and it worked well. The stl10 also works well
     
  5. etoncrow

    etoncrow (aka Greg Harman, the curmudgeon with a conundrum)

    I am pushing a Euphonic-Audio Wizzy 10 and a EA Wizzy 12 with a EA iAmp Micro 550 with great success.
     
  6. I think the mismatched drivers/phase argument is absurd. I have used "mismatched" drivers for decades and it seems to me that two non-identical drivers complement each other, while two identical cabinets will reinforce each other very well, this means that any warts will stick out more!
    another example. My mesa 2x10 and mesa 15 sounded more alike than my eden 15 and mesa 15. My SWR 2x12 sounds a lot more like the Eden 15 than either of the mesas.

    Also, all this ballyhoo about phase, what about cabinet diffraction? With the drivers recessed behind a grill and a cabinet that (in most cases) has a lip that juts out an inch or two, you will be hearing all kinds of diffraction artifacts when not on axis.

    So get whatever sounds good, fits your pocket book, is correct impedance and if its important to you, looks good with your rig.
     
  7. billfitzmaurice

    billfitzmaurice Commercial User

    Sep 15, 2004
    New Hampshire
    Owner, Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design
    Your entitled to your opinion. But it's not shared by the professional acoustical engineering community. Yes, bass players mix drivers. And for one reason: Because we've always done it. No other loudspeaker genre does. Why? Because they know enough not to.
    And, to answer the inevitable if it's so bad why do bass cab manufacturers sell them? question, it's simple: You'll buy them.
     
  8. zillo

    zillo

    Jun 5, 2003
    I've used a Workingman's 12 with a workingpro 1-10 for several years. I like it a lot.
     
  9. rpsands

    rpsands

    Jul 6, 2007
    Phoenix, AZ
    I'd sell the STl 10. The problem is that cab is tuned for being loud and small, not low :)

    The Shuttle 3.0 and a Neox112-T would be a great combo by itself. Add another Neox112T as needed. The NeoX cabs are bigger and tuned to have louder lows.
     
  10. I have an Ashdown ABM115 mini. It's a 15" speaker in an enclosure smaller than usual. Light, easy to carry, rated to 300W. I use it under my TCE 2x10" cab (vertically) and the mix sounds really good in my opinion.
     
  11. B String

    B String Supporting Member

    Apr 11, 2002
    Los Angeles
    One of the rare exceptions to the rule seems to be the Epifani
    UL112/UL110 stack. They work very well together. Any other
    time I've mixed sizes or brands of speakers, its been VERY
    hit and miss....and luck.
     
  12. rptrsn2

    rptrsn2

    Feb 21, 2008
    Northeast Missouri
    Endorsing Artist: Aurora Strings
    only way to tell is to try it out and see if you like. personally i've never had a rig of all one size driver i liked. if your happy with the 110 and it gives you all you want the use the same. i found what my 210 lacks my115 covers and vice versa.
     
  13. Okay I'll bite. What about almost every dual woofer JBL design. They have identical sized woofers but one is run full range from the tweeter down to its normal bass roll off, the other is band limited, with a bass cut off quite a bit higher. I am sure you are familiar with the Urei monitors and the JBL PA speakers that use this design. I dont see how that is any different from the transfer function you get with a 1x12 and 1x15. One speaker handles just mids the other covers mids and lows.
    And yes I have always wanted to gig with a pair of 813's and a really big Crown amplifier.
     
  14. rptrsn2

    rptrsn2

    Feb 21, 2008
    Northeast Missouri
    Endorsing Artist: Aurora Strings
    i think while a lot of those little frequency charts show something that should be a concern,the human ear seems to not agree.either that or there is an amazing amount of ignorant legendary bassists out there.lol. but i will admit it is hit or miss if they will work together and ithink the graphs can help there
     
  15. Sundogue

    Sundogue

    Apr 26, 2001
    Wausau, WI
    Umm, because they are identically sized woofers? I'm not sure what that has to do with mixing driver sizes though.

    And while I agree that if it sounds good, then it is good. That does not mean it couldn't sound better.

    http://lowdownlowdown.com/greenboy/DL/tablesfrequency.htm

    Look at the first chart. While mixing a 10" and 12" together may not be all that bad (I've mixed 210's and 115's together with pleasing results), there just is a better way to do things. One does not have to do it better if they don't want to.

    Why bother discussing something if you just want to ignore the facts anyway?
     
  16. billfitzmaurice

    billfitzmaurice Commercial User

    Sep 15, 2004
    New Hampshire
    Owner, Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design
    That's called a 2.5 alignment, using two identical woofers. Both woofers are working in the low end, where power demands are highest. Only one woofer is working in the mids, as power demands are lower there. And the reason for this alignment is to not run different drivers in the same bandwidth.
    BTW, if your typical 2x/4x/8x used this configuration, with all the drivers working in the low end but only one of the vertical driver lines working in the mids, the midrange dispersion would be doubled, and high frequency comb-filtering would be eliminated. The PA guys like JBL have used this technology for about 30 years now. Considering it adds only two parts and $10 to the cost of a cab it's something that the bass cab industry could do, but won't, because if you can't see it you won't pay for it.

    Only when there is a crossover or filter. That's the right way to do it. When you toss together different bass cabs there is no crossover or filter.
     
  17. 5StringPocket

    5StringPocket Supporting Member

    Jan 11, 2006
    Texas
    I hadn't heard of the 2.5 alignment but this makes sense. So, for a 2x vertical cab would this would eliminate mid/hi comb filtering in the vertical plane? (comb filtering in both horizontal and vertical planes with a 4x square arrangement)

    I could see this being a nice thing to try with a cab loaded with two Eminence 3012HO drivers which seem a little shy below 150 Hz and could benefit from low frequency coupling but have a strong midrange where a single driver could probably carry it. If the upper driver were run full range what would be a good high freq rolloff point for the lower driver?
     
  18. JimmyM

    JimmyM

    Apr 11, 2005
    Apopka, FL
    Endorsing: Ampeg Amps, EMG Pickups
    many legendary bassists are absolutely clueless about how audio works. why? because they don't have to be...that's the soundman's job. and there are some mixed rigs that work well. but i've never liked them, and my human ear can always pick up on some sort of problem with them.

    otoh, it's not considered good to make more than a single column of drivers but i love the svt 810. so it's a personal thing whether you'll like mixing drivers or not, but just like my prized svt 810, it's not considered good audio practice.

    i also think it's pretty stupid to want to remain in the dark about these issues. a lot of people spend a lot of money trying to fix their rigs that don't sound good, when if they learned a little about how audio works, they could solve most of their problems the first time. people are free to like their rigs even if they don't follow the "rules" (i certainly do), but why turn your back on knowledge? at least you'd be able to make an informed decision about your rig rather than guesswork.
     
  19. SteveC

    SteveC Moderator Staff Member

    Nov 12, 2004
    Eastern North Dakota
    Lots of people gig with a 300 watt 2x10.
     
  20. billfitzmaurice

    billfitzmaurice Commercial User

    Sep 15, 2004
    New Hampshire
    Owner, Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design
    Rule of thumb with side by side drivers is not to run them higher than 1 wavelength center to center distance. With two twelves mounted frame to frame that's about twelve inches, 1130 Hz. If you're crossing to a midrange driver at or near that 1130 Hz then it's moot as far as combing is concerned. You'd only want to lowpass just one of them if you're running them much higher than that, and if they're horizontally mounted, to control combing. As for dispersion, you'd get a substantial benefit by high-passing one of the drivers an octave lower. But again, only if they're horizontally mounted, if they're vertical there's no need. Combing and narrow dispersion on the vertical plane is not necessarily undesirable, more often than not it's a good thing.

    Most 2.5 alignments are vertical, and they don't do 2.5 for dispersion reasons. They do it to overcome the baffle step, which rolls off response below the frequency where the baffle is less than 1 wavelength wide. That results in the low frequency response being 6dB less than the midrange response when the cab is up on a pole. Adding a second woofer to cover only those lower frequencies adds back that 6dB in the low end.
     
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