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Vt bass (deluxe) for PA sound only

Discussion in 'Effects [BG]' started by BiigM, Aug 15, 2012.


  1. BiigM

    BiigM

    Nov 11, 2007
    Denmark
    Hi guys.

    Lately I've become a bit tired of the DI only sound in the PA.

    On large gigs, soundmen usually do a mic and a DI, but for smaller gigs, it often DI only. And not all the soundmen make it sound like a cabinet out there, so often there is way to much high end compared to my gear, and the punch is not the same either.

    I was thinking of getting a VT Bass maybe the deluxe model, but I would only use it for the PA, since I like the sound of my amp, and don't wanna put more eq's and gainstages in front of it than necessary.

    There's also the option to get my own mic, but one of my cabs is a three way, which makes it less than ideal for a mic, and I was thinking that a vt bass preset would be a more "constant" solution.

    Could you guys discuss this a bit to help me make up my mind ;-)

    Maybe you have other solutions to the problem.
     
  2. I got my own mic, but since you have a three way cab and some soundmen won't let the bassist mic up (ugh...), your solution is a good one.


    Another idea is a speaker simulator (though the VT bass is this, among other things). There are DI box/rack units that go between the amp and the cab that simulate the sound of a mic'd speaker. The palmer PDI-09, for example. This would give you the sound of YOUR amp getting mic'd, rather than the VT bass which gives you the sound of an ampeg getting mic'd. I'm not sure how well it'd replicate things like tweeters and stuff, if at all, though I doubt the VT does either.
     
  3. BiigM

    BiigM

    Nov 11, 2007
    Denmark
    I actually pondered getting the Radial DI (similar to the palmer) that's made for putting between amp and cab.
    But it's made with 1/4 inputs and outputs which I find a bit impractical, and I don't know how much power it can take. Another thing is that I often get rental gear, and the amp is not always the aggie db750 or svt I specify. No seance in di'ing a crap amp ;-)

    My main cab is a bergantino nv412 so I could mic that, but for small gigs it would probably still be a bit impractical.

    Is there other options like the vt bass with a speaker sim for the DI and a clean through for the amp?
     
  4. JimmyM

    JimmyM

    Apr 11, 2005
    Apopka, FL
    Endorsing: Ampeg Amps, EMG Pickups
    The Radial DI is voiced for guitar.

    So it isn't the cheapest option, but I am loving the A-Designs REDDI. Not a speaker sim but it's a very high quality DI that sounds identical to a clean B-15 being DI'd through the speaker out.

    However, I do love that VT pedal and think it's a tremendous value for the money, and you don't need a speaker sim with it.
     
  5. BiigM

    BiigM

    Nov 11, 2007
    Denmark
    Hey jimmyM. I figured you'd show up :)

    I actually already have the Reddi, and use it in my studio. And I agree, it's an amazing DI. I do all my recording with it.
    But for me it is very much a studio box. I had it with me on one big "fly in" gig, but since the flight company's charge per extra thing plus for the Kilos, it wasn't a very welcome thing to bring. It's a bit heavy, and needs its own flightcase :)

    The radial is definitely out then.

    My pedal board is already set up with dual inputs for two basses, or keys and bass. (this can offcourse be reconfigured if i got the deluxe)
    So would you just get the regular vt and throw my radial j48 after it? Or the deluxe?
    Remember I don't want the simulation to go to my amp. Only to the board. So I might need a y splitter for the regular.
     
  6. JimmyM

    JimmyM

    Apr 11, 2005
    Apopka, FL
    Endorsing: Ampeg Amps, EMG Pickups
    That's why I thought the REDDI would be a good idea, since its XLR signal doesn't go to the amp. You could get a soft bag for it and carry it on, or you could do what I do and stick it in my suitcase in a soft bag and wrap clothes around it. Admittedly, neither one of these solutions actually deal with it being a 10 lb. DI ;) but I'm married to it now.

    In your shoes I'd probably go for the Deluxe because it has two inputs and a parallel out that doesn't get touched by VT circuitry. And then you could eliminate the need for a separate DI and a switcher. Unless of course you already have that and you're trying to save a hundy ;) But the VTD will definitely be less spaghetti.
     
  7. BiigM

    BiigM

    Nov 11, 2007
    Denmark
    I wish someone made a DI with a simulation like the VT out to the DI and a clean pass thru like a regular DI, but without all the other bells and whistles. And with the size and form of a radial or similar.

    It's a bit much to have dual inputs, a loop, and 6 presets in my case. They have no use when I run out of the clean 1/4 to my amp anyway :)
     
  8. JimmyM

    JimmyM

    Apr 11, 2005
    Apopka, FL
    Endorsing: Ampeg Amps, EMG Pickups
    You could get a regular VT modded with an XLR out and a bypassed 1/4". There's a dude www.putnamguitars.com that does pedal mods and he's done it on a lot of VT's, plus he's a Sansamp dealer so you could get one from him one-stop rather than buying one there and sending it overseas to him.
     
  9. I have the BDDI Deluxe. It looks a lot bigger in the photos than in your hand and it isn't all that heavy.

    If the sound guy presses your suck button you can accidentally stand on another preset with 4dB extra bass in it :) Make the other one your mute.
     
  10. BiigM

    BiigM

    Nov 11, 2007
    Denmark
    I subbed for a guy who had the other sans amp deluxe model, I guess the pedal is the same size right :)
    And I see your point with having a boost button, but usually I would say that the sound guy is standing on the right side of the PA to be making judgements about levels ;-)

    That putnam dude might be an idea.
    How sensitive are the buttons on the normal Vt. I won't be able to always walk in front to hear if the settings are right, and the buttons will probably move when the roadies unpack. So if making marks on the pedals to see where they should be is not precise enough, it might be a problem.
     
  11. On the Deluxe you can move the knobs all you like. Turning it on gives you the preset position values. Only after you move the knobs some more and wait for a bit will the new position value gradually take up. This prevents any nasty surprises. They are quite sensitive.

    When you move a knob the preset light will blink to show it is in a different position from the preset value, going steady when you return it to the preset value.

    If you go to another preset and return the unit goes back to the last preset saved.

    To save you double tap the preset button while in that preset. Each knob is its own monkey. It only saves the new knob positions of the ones that were moved during that session. Pretty bulletproof but still not so great for saving in the heat of a gig.

    My jest about the boost was related to tone rather than volume, that you might take it seriously if you wished. I know it's not a good idea to be 2nd guessing the sound guy. You seem to have tonal disagrements with the DI'd tone which smack of soundguy head in posterior syndrome rather than the PA not being able to make a half decent bass tone.

    Around these parts the trendy DI bass tone is all bottom and a little bit of clank.
     
  12. BiigM

    BiigM

    Nov 11, 2007
    Denmark
    I figured the deluxe would like that, since the BDDI I borrowed worked like that.

    It's not that I don't like the tone of my bass DI'ed usually. But most of the time I do like the warmth and thickness from my amp a little bit better.

    Can anyone tell me about the sensitivity of the buttons on the regular VT?
     
  13. JimmyM

    JimmyM

    Apr 11, 2005
    Apopka, FL
    Endorsing: Ampeg Amps, EMG Pickups
    They're pretty sensitive and interactive with all the other buttons, yes. But with time you develop a knack for tweaking it and it gets to be not as big a PITA.
     
  14. tech21nyc

    tech21nyc Commercial User

    Aug 17, 2010
    Manufacturer: Tech 21
    Every sound company we use provides DI boxes. How else would they get the keys and acoustic guitar in the system. Since you already have the Radial DI, just use that with our VT Bass. You might also consider either our Para Driver DI or Bass Driver as they are small and seem to fit your requirements.

    I'm a little confused by your post. On a small gig even if they only DI your bass, the amp is still being heard in the room. Unless you are out in the audience during the gig you can't hear the combination of your amp and DI unless you step out with a wireless.

    My band plays big outside concerts as well as a few clubs but I have no idea what anything sounds like to the audience. That's why we usually hire the same sound company whenever possible. If it's a festival with multple bands like the gig we played over the weekend we are at the mercy of the sound provided. Fortunately it was a good sound crew. I went out and listened to the other bands. Still, if it sucked what could we have done?
     
  15. father of fires

    father of fires Commercial User

    Nov 29, 2006
    BALTIMORE CITY
    Chief of Medicine at Damnation Audio
    I've been toying with the idea of designing something like the Radial JDI with a cab sim voiced like a flatback 810. I was also going to add a "ported" mode to simulate the low end extension of a ported 410. I was planning on using it with a new tube head I'm buying. I guess this is as any good of place as any to ask:

    Would anyone else have use for something like this?
     
  16. BiigM

    BiigM

    Nov 11, 2007
    Denmark
    Offcourse they provide DI's. But I still bring my own since you never know what they throw at you.

    I know that I have no chance to hear or control what is going on in the PA, but what I would like to do, is give the FOH the tone that is closest to what I think it should be. From then on it's out of my hands.

    Your regular VT has no option to send an unaffected signal through, which means a splitter of some kind would be needed. I don't want to send a simulation of an amp, to an amp. I'm Not a fan of putting to many variables in the signal. Only what's needed.

    After thinking about it it's either going to be a vt deluxe og a Putnam modded Vt.
     
  17. tech21nyc

    tech21nyc Commercial User

    Aug 17, 2010
    Manufacturer: Tech 21
    Since you already have the DI you could just use the single version of the VT Bass. There are other ways to use the VT Bass in parallel with an amp but a DI is best in that there may be a ground loop between your amp and the board.

    The original idea behind the Bass Driver was that you would plug into it and send the un-effected parallel out to your bass rig and use it as your normally would. The SansAmp out of the pedal would then go to the mixing board and you could use the blend control on the pedal to mix in your straight bass guitar tone with the amp emulated sound like in a studio. The advantage to this, is that you get a consistent FOH sound from room to room. That's hard to achieve when you are forced to travel and use back line amps.
     
  18. BiigM

    BiigM

    Nov 11, 2007
    Denmark
    Your description of the original idea behind the bass driver DI, sounds exactly what I need. Unfortunately you didn't put the same outputs on the VT.

    I know I could use a splitter cable or box and run the VT into my radial. But that one or two more boxes on my board.

    A Putnam modded VT seems to be a better idea.
     
  19. tech21nyc

    tech21nyc Commercial User

    Aug 17, 2010
    Manufacturer: Tech 21
    Two different products. The Bass Driver Di is a multi-featured DI with amp emulation. The VT Bass is an amp emulating preamp pedal. It shares the same form factor as all our Character pedals. Since guitar players usually have effects before as well as after the pedal, the DI format would have been somewhat limiting for those that want to use post Character pedal efx. It would also increase the price.

    If you are using the pedal only to go the board there is really no issue. If you use it in conjunction with a bass amp, a DI will be your best bet. Modifying is also an option though it does void our warranty.
     
  20. BiigM

    BiigM

    Nov 11, 2007
    Denmark
    I understand the differences.

    One issue with gong only to the board with a VT would be the need for a signal splitter and a DI alongside the VT, meaning a bigger board, and more clutter.

    What I tried to say before was, that I wish you had a bass driver DI, in a VT version. The BDDI has the right outputs, but the wrong tonal character (for me off course)
     

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