Walter Woods Ultra - Radial JDI

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by Big String, Oct 6, 2004.

  1. Gear: Walter Woods Ultra, Sadowky PJ/4 Active, Lakland Joe Osboren Passive, Radial JDI with Jensen transformer passive.
    What I want to accomplish: I would like to use both instruments one plugged into each channel of the WWU so I can have each bass eq'd to its output, being the Sad is much hotter than the Joe. I would then like to run the signal to the board out of the WWU DI send probably using the PRE selector since it's easier for the soundman to set the EQ and my basses sound very good anyway.

    Previous Problems: While using the Joe Passive bass and the JDI (also a passive unit) out of the WWU DI-OUT, the signal was pretty weak. Because of this I have been just running straight into the JDI and using the "thru" to provide my signal to the WWU input. It works very good that way, but hard to switch instruments.
    **I have tried to use two basses but the sound man has to turn down the channel on the board or I get a loud pop to the PA mains while unplugging the cord to JDI. Plus I would either have to re-eq the amp or transfer the patch from the thru output of the JDI to the other already eq'd second WWU channel. Also, changing instruments from active to passive, the soundman would again have to adjust the channel gain/trim to the output of the bass. Not a pleasent thing in my band since the Drummer usually runs the sound and it takes too much time.

    Theory: If I did run the JDI out of the of the WWU DI-OUT and use both instrument plugged in each channel and pre-eq'd than no adjustment would have to be made, just turn down the bass and channel gain on the WWU to be safe.
    ** BUT, if the passive bass does not react as well with the passive DI; as perscribed as a possibility by our good friend KingOAmps in a previous thread; do to the output impedance of the pickups (active vs. passive) then I would be asking the soundman again to adjust the gain/trim on the board channel.... yikes.

    I've thought of AB boxes but adjustsments would still have to be made.

    Below is the information from the old thread from KingOAmps. Makes sense to me...

    Well I had quite the interesting experience with this myself. And that's one of the reasons that that little part from your earlier post about "double-DI'ing" caught my eye. That and the Radial JDI part.

    The JDI is a passive box, right? The JDV is active. Well I'm not qualified to go into all the technical munjibungo (I mean mumbojumbo ) but I believe that the input impedence of the box lies at the heart of the matter. Like me, you play a passive bass and I'm told that passive p/u's are higher impedence vs, say active p/u's. Well the input impedence of the box needs to be high also so as not to "load down" the signal. Check the input impedence specs on the JDI and the JDV. I think there's a significant difference.

    Many music store "salesman" like to think "passive bass, passive box" because it sounds logical, nice, and easy. I don't think it works to well in the real world however.

    Though I do not own any, I've witnessed active basses working quite well with passive boxes. I believe this is due to the much lower impedence of the active p/u's. They don't need to have the higher input impedence of the active boxes cuz they're already lower. I believe also that this is why we sometimes hear people say, "I just plugged the bass straight into the board" when talking about some active basses and not even having a DI meaning the bass's output is already well-matched to the board's input.

    Borrow a Countryman or another quality active DI and see if that works for you like it did me. I think your signal is being killed by the passive box.
  2. NeedMoreBass

    NeedMoreBass unregistered

    Feb 14, 2003
    You've confused me referring twice to the DI on the back. The only connections on the back are speaker outputs. :confused:

    Are you coming out the direct out on the front of the amp?
  3. Hi Need, hoping you were there too.
    Sorry, I mean the DI OUT that would go to the mix with the pre/post selector. Yes, it's on the front of the amp.... So, there is two bass signals out going (one at a time) to one bass channel at the board.
  4. I think this was designed with you in mind....

    From what I understand, everything made my Radial is top notch. My guitarist swears by his Tonebone and I can't believe how well made my JDI is. This little DI box is 2.2 lbs!!!! You have one, so you know what I'm talking about.

  5. Thanks Rocky, I'll look closer at it, but I already have two channels so I think it might be redundant.... I check though.
  6. Some other info.

    The JDI only has 120k input impedance according to Radial. Walter told me anything less than 500k input imp. would affect the tone/volume especially with a passive bass and depending on the pickups etc. I think Walter just put that option on the amp to keep everyone happy, but would eliminate it if he had it all his way.

    I've been talking with KingOAmps and he suggested maybe just to mic the amp and be done with it.... That would solve most of the problem.
  7. nonsqtr

    nonsqtr The emperor has no clothes!

    Aug 29, 2003
    Burbank CA USA
    Sounds to me like you're experiencing the normal voltage transformation that occurs along with impedance transformation in a transformer. The obvious solution would seem to be to run the line-out on the WWU directly into the board. You "could" also run the line out from the WWU into your direct box, and from there into the board. Note that there are "many" possibilities for configuring and wiring your DI, check, in the schematics and white papers section, for a ton of information on DI's and their applications. Jensen also makes transformers with multiple inputs and multiple outputs, so you can mix signals "in the transformer". Not sure whether that would apply in this situation, but it might be something to keep in the back of your mind should the need arise.
  8. tombowlus

    tombowlus If it sounds good, it is good Gold Supporting Member

    Apr 3, 2003
    North central Ohio
    Editor-in-Chief, Bass Gear Magazine
    Well, you might start with asking Walter which specific DI's he recommends for use with his amps. I'd be interested in knowing this, as well. But I agree with the last two suggestions. Either mic the cab(s), or just use the unbalanced line out all the way to the board. Unless you are in a high noise area, this shouldn't be problematic.

    Better yet, run the line out and mic the cab(s). Whenever the sound man has an "extra" channel, and I can talk him into it, I run both a DI and a mic'd signal. You'd be surprised how much better a blend of those two can sound compared to either one alone.

    Later, Tom.

    Dean, I had a conversation with Jim Bergantino yesterday, and your name came up (surprise!).
  9. Yes, that sounds logical.

    Walter Woods does not recommend running straight into the board from the line out especially with Phantom Power which we use. He recommends a good Passive DI.

    "You "could" also run the line out from the WWU into your direct box, and from there into the board. "

    This hookup is were I'm having the problem. I like this hookup so I can utilize both channels on the Woods though. Last night I tried it through my Mackie Mini Mixer and Near Field monitors with this hookup. The Sad barely changed in volume (vs. running the DI straight into the board and using the thru to the WWU. The Jazz Passive volume dropped dramatically running the DI out of the line out. It was much louder running DI to mixer and thru to amp, but that way I can't use both channels without yanking out cords...
  10. nonsqtr

    nonsqtr The emperor has no clothes!

    Aug 29, 2003
    Burbank CA USA
    Interesting. The impedance of the line output is constant, it should not change depending on which bass you use. What that tells me is that you're experiencing impedance issues with your DI. The passive pickups usually have an impedance around 10k or so, while active outputs are "low" impedance (usually on the order of 100 ohms or so). However, this situation should be correctible using the preamp volume control on the WW.

    By the way, most boards don't apply phantom power to the line inputs, only to the mic inputs. If your board has TRS line inputs, double check the manual, but it they're normal unbalanced inputs you don't have to worry about it. I run the line out straight into the board all the time (I never use a DI with the WW). It works fine that way.
  11. When I tested to my mini mixer all the volumes on the WW were at zero so I could hear what the signal was doing to the monitors, of course it was in the 'pre' toggle setting ... did I do it wrong?

    Yes, my Mackie 1604vlz mixer only has the Phantom 48v assigned to the xlr/mic buss, only you can't isolate the channels which sorta stinks but yes, your are correct that the line input is TRS capable. I'm not sure if Walter meant only phantom or something else could damage the Ultra by NOT using a Passive DI. As you said you do it all the time...I just know so little about electronics I feel like a caveman-bass player.
  12. Hey Darth-Bowlus
    I missed your post until just now..
    Walter actually recommended the Whirlwind because it works good and is cheaper than many. Active DI's are also good providing the DI has a transformer. (per Walter Woods today)
    I went with the JDI because I really like the Jensen transformer and have soundmen tell me everytime how they like my gear with that tranny. My Dem201s has one also. I never had a single DI unit before so I have nothing to compare to. Never know the Whirlwind might work better....

    Ya, Jim is a great guy... I know he thinks I'm crazy as hell, but he helped me out lots of times. I still haven't found a cab I like better than the HT/EX112 stack.

    Did you ever see Hardware Wars (spoof on Star Wars) ? Must see. Massive
  13. Eric Moesle

    Eric Moesle Supporting Member

    Sep 21, 2001
    Columbus OH
    FWIW, the most respected soundmen I've dealt with over the years usually disliked mixing both a mic'ed bass cab and a DI, as it typically caused phase issues out front.
  14. tombowlus

    tombowlus If it sounds good, it is good Gold Supporting Member

    Apr 3, 2003
    North central Ohio
    Editor-in-Chief, Bass Gear Magazine
    I can certainly see where if you aren't careful, or don't have a means to correct out of phase signals, that this could indeed be a problem. However, when you can avoid phase cancellation issues, I find it to be an effective tool towards getting "my sound" at the PA, as well as at my rig. One thing I used to hate was having my rig sound just the way I want it, but then when I get out in front of the stage, and the sound of the bass is completely different (usually a nice, indistinct thump for each note). And this is with "good" sound techs.
  15. tombowlus

    tombowlus If it sounds good, it is good Gold Supporting Member

    Apr 3, 2003
    North central Ohio
    Editor-in-Chief, Bass Gear Magazine
    Where might I find this?
  16. Talked with Mr. Woods again this afternoon and asked a few things. I repeat what Walter told me before and that is he does recommend using a DI preferrably passive. Active DI's are ok to use also he just cautioned that any DI used needs to have a transformer to protect from "ground loops." I explained that a fellow WW owner had been going direct with no DI for years with no problem. Walter said he is just plain lucky and that sooner or later some electrician will have crossed a wire some were and you'll smoke your amp.... "use a DI" ... "with a transformer"... further Phantom won't hurt the WW it has a protection circut for that +48v but still use a DI with transformer.

    As I do not want to tempt fate with my little red amp I will continue to use the DI. As far as my situation goes with the two basses, he did not have an answer for me further than what we have brainstormed. I suppose I could: (one bass per channel on WWU)
    1. Get an outboard preamp for my passive bass to bring it up to a better volume, both basses going into one channel to the mixer.
    2. Keep the volume on the Sadowsky Active bass down to a more equal level of the Lakland Passive bass.
    3. Use two DI's and two channels on the mix/board to set for each bass.
    4. Screw it all and use one bass.

    HOW DO YOU DOUBLERS DO IT ??? I know there are lots of guys doubling with the WW ....
  17. I'm sure it's on VHS somewhere. I've seen it on TV a couple times. Wait to you see the Princess ... :D
  18. tombowlus

    tombowlus If it sounds good, it is good Gold Supporting Member

    Apr 3, 2003
    North central Ohio
    Editor-in-Chief, Bass Gear Magazine
    All I can picture and hear in my mind is Space Balls... :p
  19. It's quite different than that one. Loved Space Balls too. "I'm a Mogg, half man, half dog, I'm my own best friend." John Candy was hilarious.

    Hardware Wars is ridiculous actually...lots of real chezzy props etc. funny though.

    Hey... did I just hijack my own thread... :rolleyes:

    Back to the WWU :D
  20. NeedMoreBass

    NeedMoreBass unregistered

    Feb 14, 2003
    Just wondering if Walter said anything again about the input impedence.