Whappo, Jr. vs. Epi 4x10UL

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by Muzique Fann, Apr 25, 2005.

  1. Muzique Fann

    Muzique Fann Howzit brah

    Dec 8, 2003
    Kauai, HI
    I've read a bunch but I don't think this comparison has been covered? Just curious - if you had to pick one cab which would it be and why?
  2. I've played many gigs with my Epifani 410UL, either using a Walter Woods 1200 or a Thunderfunk550. I finally got to play a whappo Jr in a music store recently with an Eden head. Both are great sounding cabs, but very different sounding. The Epifani is very, very articulate, with a pronounced upper mid and a very pronounced high end. It's very modern sounding and extremely punchy and clean... it's a very, very good 'modern' sounding cab for slapping. While i haven't played the Whappo Jr. on a gig, my impressions for playing it at moderate volume in the store is that it's very even and 'uncolored'... very fat with a little fuller and maybe a little tubbier low end. The mids and highs (especially the highs) are much less pronounced. So, it's very even sounding, and seems to be very good for fingerstyle playing. It sounded a little 'polite' to me if you are into a more aggressive sound or slap a lot.

    The Epi410 really, really punches through in a live setting and I really like the tight bottom and very crisp high end. The whappo Jr is great too, and has a huge, warm low end, but doesn't have the crispness and articulation of the Epi (IMO)
  3. PS....the Epifani is also quite a bit lighter, which is a big positive to me.
  4. jokerjkny


    Jan 19, 2002
    NY / NJ / PA
    dunno how this compares, but...

    i've owned both an Accugroove Tri112 and Epifani UL210, which is literally half of what you're asking. ;)

    still, 12" speakers in general always feel a tad attenuated in the mids, and lack a certain punch that only 10" speakers can give you, and these two are no exception.

    and yea, the Tri was uncolored tho had a sweet airy high end, while the Epi had a more detail in the high end and wasnt as diffuse.

    also, on gig, the Epi seemed more me. punched thru with authority, while the Tri112, i needed a little bit more creative EQ'ing.

    but again, i sorta talking sideways, considering the options i present to you. hope they do help in some way.
  5. HI All,
    I'm pretty interested in this thread and the comparison with the Jr. Now I'm aware that they are two completely different cabs and vibe. What I'm noticing lately that on discussions regarding Accugroove cab comparisons, no one is mentioning (anymore) that these cabs are designed "flat" to "EQ" to what ever your might need...so... uncolored if you will.

    My point and question, if one must truly EQ Agrooves or flat cabs, then ARE the users doing that ??? THEN comparing to other cabs that sound great by just plugging in but have a coloure...??

    My interest is this. I'm a GIANT Bergantino fan, and have had numerous live gigs using them, so I'm well aware of how my instruments and amps react to the Bergs. The Bergs do have a particular sound/vibe/color/character/flavor (pick-one). Not to say they aren't clear, but certainly not completely flat. So my current intersest in THAT. Compeletly FLAT.

    What is available today that makes this claim... Agroove, Acme, EA is all I can think of. I don't know if I'm going to like "completely flat" or not, but I'm interested. Also, there is the claim, that by going "flat/EQing" method you can hear better without getting louder and just adding more of what is making you strain to hear....that is the actual THING right there that I just have to hear for myself.

    Thanks ALL
  6. alexclaber

    alexclaber Commercial User

    Jun 19, 2001
    Brighton, UK
    Director - Barefaced Ltd
    I've been using Acme cabs exclusively since 1999 and cannot imagine going back to the more coloured cab designs. I leave the EQ flat on my SWR GP and that drives a QSC PLX 3002 giving me plenty of headroom.

    I wouldn't say that I EQ the cab to sound like any particular coloured cabs but I do use my OBP-3's onboard EQ pretty heavily as well as using a whole mess of effects pedals. I love the sound that I get with the OBP-3 bypassed and the P/J pickups on my bass either mixed equally or soloed, it's a great big fat clear sound, and the character changes hugely by just moving the pickup switch. I think a lot of players would be very happy with just using that switch and their hands to get their tonal changes, as the Acmes are very responsive to even small changes in the input signal.

    Then to expand my sonic palette I use the onboard EQ in every which way, even using the bass cut heavily for when I'm playing chordal 'guitar' parts. I run effects from the subtle Phase 90 right through to crazed filtered distorted synth flanged loopingness. And the joy is that it all comes through loud and clear, rather than being filtered through the cab's inherent character. And onstage or recording I simply DI my preamp without having the fuss of messing with mics (though the rig sounds great miced if you can be bothered).

    I think the flat approach can broaden your horizons by providing a rig that can do everything from rock grunge, through dub depth and funk grease to slap happy 'hi-fi'. And it helps you really get into getting the sound out of your bass which makes life much easier in the studio. On the flip side, the colouration of certain cabs could be what you need to punch through the mix live, or to add the finishing touch to your tone in the studio or on the stage. Horses for courses - it's all good.

  7. Thanks Alex
    I have not tried Acme yet. Probably should.

    You mentioned at the end of your post about colored cabs and cutting. Do you feel your rig doens't cut as well as a "colored type" cab? Also my main question to all was, can you actually hear yourself better with a flat cab? Meaning you don't need the cutting effect as much because you can hear more clearly usually at a lower volume. Thanks
  8. alexclaber

    alexclaber Commercial User

    Jun 19, 2001
    Brighton, UK
    Director - Barefaced Ltd
    I think that a lot of more coloured cabs are tuned to cut through the mix in a certain way, partly because that sounds good and partly because a lot of bassists just want a tone they can hear and everything else is gravy. I think if you just swapped out an Epifani or Eden or SWR or Schroeder etc cab and replaced it with an Acme, you'd be amazed at how much clearer everything sounded soloed and then at how (for most bassists) your sound kind of disappeared when the band was cranking. However, if you then took stock and adjusted how you were playing and tweaked your onboard EQ and pickup settings, you'd cut through just as well as before, and your tone would not only be clear and audible but much more responsive to any changes in technique etc.

    If whilst doing all this testing you'd been recording the DI'd tone along with the rest of the band, I strongly suspect that the better tone in all respects, fatness, clarity, cut etc, would be the tone from your the Acme setup. It's all about getting the sound out of the bass and then making it louder, rather than the cab being the final part of the tone controls.

    To put it another way, every soundman that's had me DI'd through the PA has been amazed at how he just has to run the fader up and leave everything as is, and it sounds great.

  9. JohnThomasson

    JohnThomasson Supporting Member

    Feb 3, 2003
    Nashville, TN
    Endorsing Artist: Mesa Boogie, DR Strings, Fender, Source Audio & Fishman
    I'm looking for a new touring cab. I have to double at loud volumes, so I need something that sounds great for bass guitar and upright. I was able A/B/C/D/E/F/ a bunch of cabs at Bass Emporium. They have a cab selctor switch so I can instantly switch from one to the other. I played through a Acme B4, an Epifani UL 4-10, a Bergantino 2-10s/12s combo, a Bergantino 322, a berg 425 and a berg 610. I plugged both my basses into my Fishman Pro EQ Platinum Preamp with the EQ set flat into the effects return of an Aguilar 500. I played my Sadowsky and old carved Pfretzschner with a Fishman Full Circle pickup. I went in looking for something flat. This is what happened:

    I thought the Berg "S" combo sounded the flatest. It sounded the most like my upright and Sadowsky straight into my recording interface. I thought the Acme B4 was a little hyped in the low end and not as flat as others have said on this forum. I thought my upright would get lost in the mix if I used it. OF course I didn't get to test it in a real world setting. I didn't really consider the Epifani before I went in there, but I switched through all the cabs they had (lot's I didn't mention) and I really liked it. It is a little hyped in certain areas, but it really grew on me once I spent time with it. I use a Bag End thin 4-10 right now for touring, but I want something that can kick out more low end without taking a 15. I still want to try an accugroove Whappo or Jr. before I make my decision. I won't hit the road until the end of the summer after we do the next record in the coming months. I liked the Bergantino 210s, but I'm not sure if I like the 12s. It seemed like the there was a gap in the low mids between the two. But that could be me getting used to "flat." The UL410 is at the top of the list right now. It really made my smile, especially when I was playing my Sadowsky. Maybe I don't want flat after all.
  10. alexclaber

    alexclaber Commercial User

    Jun 19, 2001
    Brighton, UK
    Director - Barefaced Ltd
    I haven't played a Low-B4 but common-sense dictates that it wouldn't be as flat sounding as a Low-B2 due to the two extra woofers but no extra mid/high drivers. However it should still have plenty of mid/high clarity - were the attenuators all the way up?

  11. GRoberts

    GRoberts Supporting Member

    Jan 7, 2003
    Tucson, AZ USA
    "maybe I don't want flat at all?" That questions is what sticks in my head. I don't know the answer either. Even though "flat" serves as a benchmark reference point, does it sound good? Does Flat give me the performance I crave? Like Big, whether Bergs are colored or not, I like their sound, the punch, the high end snarl I get when I dig in, the way the mids cut and punch on my HT322 etc.

    Considering the comparison of the notoriously "Flat" sounding Accugroove Whappo Jr compared with the EPI410UL, my tendencies gravitate toward a brighter tone, more sparkly tone. If I get a "flat" sounding cabinet and then introduce those bright frequencies from my bass or Amplifier EQ to arrive at the same place sonically, is it better? Or is that just another way of achieving the same desired sonic outcome? Things that make me go hmm.
  12. JohnThomasson

    JohnThomasson Supporting Member

    Feb 3, 2003
    Nashville, TN
    Endorsing Artist: Mesa Boogie, DR Strings, Fender, Source Audio & Fishman
    I'm not sure if they were all the way up or not. It is an older B4 and someone (Joker/TomB) mentioned in another thread that they might have been revised. Believe me that I wanted to like the used B4. It is so much cheaper than anything else I looked at. I could get several of them for the same price as the others and it will be a cab that will sit in storage on the other side of the country when I'm not on the road, so I will only get to enjoy it part of the time. I'll be rocking my Bergantino HT/EX 12 stack when I'm at home. I did mess with the attenuators on the bergantino "S" stack. Bergantino tests all of his cabs with music since he isn't a bass player. He says the attenuator should be all the way up on the 210s when used with the 12s, but that was way too bright for me, but still pleasant.

    Quick OT Bergantino content: Man my Sadowsky>>Sans Amp pedal>>Acoustic Image Focus SA>>the Berg stack kills for a one trip package. OMG it sounded so good this weekend. I love that my amp fits in my bass gig bag. The bag over the shoulder and one berg in each hand. Love it! :hyper:

    Back on topic: Here is a link to the B4 I played.

    Logically I want a speaker that will give me what I'm sending it. I want a rock sound for my bass guitar and a hi-fi sound for my upright. I have preamps and DIs in my pedal board that go to the amp and I (think I) want a cab to match the great sound I get out of the side fills and wedges. The Epifani (and HT 322) just felt good to me. I guess I'm thinking with my heart or booty. I'll give the B4 another try and I'll give the Accugrooves a try. I'd probably go with one of the Berg NV series if I just played electric.
  13. My take on this is..
    With a "flat" cab you don't necessarily start out with a boring or none pleasing sound, as Dave pointed out, but if you need to add something you can, as well as take it away. That is the difference I think.

    Most of all what intrigues me about stating out flat is that not only do you hear your instrument as is, but the thing I keep asking about .... The theory/claim: You can HEAR yourself better BECAUSE you are not EQing + or - any of the so called "color" of the non-flat cab, hence you can (?) hear yourself better (cutting tones or not) at supposedly lower volume as you do not tend to turn up and make louder what is preventing you ( what ever tones) from hearing yourself better in the first place.
  14. GRoberts

    GRoberts Supporting Member

    Jan 7, 2003
    Tucson, AZ USA
    Well Said Big. Points well taken. Sounds to me like you're ready to take the plunge and get an Accugroove. The question will be Jr or El Whappo. :) Keep us posted.
  15. Whappo Grande

    Whappo Grande

    Feb 9, 2002
    Santa Clara, CA.
    Manager: AccuGroove Speakers
    You hear yourself better because what you hear is the true “uncolored” or “unexaggerated” sound of your instrument. Most cabs have a plug & play EQd built in tone. This can help the box perform better in certain areas, but lends itself to less flexibility.

    Misconceptions about AccuGroove:

    “Be a purist & set all you bass & amp EQs flat.”
    Although many players love the way our cabs sound with their gear set flat, they are actually designed to be EQd. Because they are fairly neutral out of the gate, you can make them do anything you want just by touching the EQ. Personally, I kick the highs up about a notch or two for more crispness and articulation without any harshness. EQ is not a sin.

    “I run the L-pads for the tweeters & midrange at 12:00”
    If it was up to me, we would not have L-pads at all. The cabs are perfectly blended with the L-pads turned all the way on. They will never get harsh or brittle because we do not use abrasive compression horns like everyone else. Where you would turn down most cabs to 12:00 or less, ours should be run all the way on.

    Bottom line:
    1) When you test AccuGroove cabinets make sure the L-pads are all the way on.
    2) When you test AccuGroove cabinets, EQ your bass & amp to get the sound you want.
    3) We designed these for players that are tired of what's on the market & need a different solution. If you are happy with what you have; keep it. If you want more of a plug & play colored cab; my buddies Jorg, Jim, Nick & others, make some wonderful gear.

    AccuGroove Music Systems
  16. alexclaber

    alexclaber Commercial User

    Jun 19, 2001
    Brighton, UK
    Director - Barefaced Ltd
    John, I see that's one of the Series 1 Low-B4's. I know the tweeter has changed since then to a more powerful and cleaner one (identical to in the Accugrooves AFAIK), plus the crossover's had some protection added to the attenuators, and the midrange is very similar but being made by someone else. Tom Bowlus mentioned that his Low-B2 was transformed by replacing the woofers ($50 each), so maybe this B4's had a hard life and could do with new ones.

    If you can try out a Low-B2, or even better, a pair, then I think you'd be very impressed. They have a lot of clarity as well as plenty of bottom, and a remarkably flat sound IMO. They're also pretty cheap, very compact and easy to carry. Stacked vertically they have excellent dispersion characteristics due to acting as a line source. I've shared my rig with an upright bass player and it worked very neatly using both cabs for my electric bass (at really high volumes - the drummer was getting drowned out!) and then just the top cab for his upright bass, which went really loud without any feedback problems.

    You can't really go wrong with all the top-notch gear that's available nowadays though!

  17. silky smoove

    silky smoove Supporting Member

    May 19, 2004
    Seattle, WA
    That's the sort of product endorsement that I actually listen to. Not only is it not "used-car-salesman'ish" and aggressive, you flat out say that there are some great alternatives to your product.

    Very well said :)
  18. I'm not plunging, but taking a lot of time since I've been looking at this idea for over a year now.... :)
  19. jokerjkny


    Jan 19, 2002
    NY / NJ / PA
    again, with mostly my experience with the Tri112,

    while more neutral sounding than my old Epifani UL112, Aggie GS112, or Berg HT112, it did take to EQ'ing quite well. the high end and low end were especially easy to dial in for a terrificly hifi sound.

    but the punchie mids that are bread/butter of my sound didnt quite fare as well. on the other hand, my Acme B2 cabs, which are 10" loaded, make for a much easier time in dialing a fat low mid punch in the gut.

    still, like i said in my review, the Tri112 was one of the ONLY cabs that i actually liked the "flat" setting on most of my amps! one of those "U5" worthy cabs. ;)

    also, like alex, with an uncolored cab like the Acme or Accu, being able to dial in whatever sound you wish is pretty fun. with my iAMP-800 or Aguilar DB680, everytime i sit down and fiddle to find a new sound, its like getting a new rig! unhappy with the sound? just twist a knob or two!

    a real shame not many guys/gals are exploring this route, especially with heads and preamps that have parametrics like the aforementioned.
  20. jdombrow

    jdombrow Supporting Member

    Jan 16, 2002
    Colorado Springs, CO
    I just received a pair of Acme Low B2's, and still have my Epifani 4x10 UL here at the house.

    With EQing, I can get the Acme's to sound like the Epifani, but I have a hard time getting the Epifani to sound as neutral as the Acmes.

    Note: I aboslutely LOVE the sound of the Epifani 4x10 UL cabinet. My only reason for changing was financial. I have some bills to pay and I got a very good deal on the Acmes, which will put some cash in my pocket by selling the Epifani.