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What chord is this?

Discussion in 'General Instruction [BG]' started by embellisher, Aug 19, 2004.


  1. embellisher

    embellisher Holy Ghost filled Bass Player Staff Member Supporting Member

    Is there a good online or downloadable utility that will tell me what chord a group of notes make?

    What chord is this?

    C# D F# G C

    What about this?

    C# D F# G C Bb

    I mean, I know that the first chord has a minor 2nd, a perfect fourth, a dimished or flat 5th, and a major 7th, but have no idea what the chord name is. Is it C#min2sus4-5maj7, or something else? Would the addition of a Bb add a flat 15, or what?
     
  2. *falls over*

    My pianist can't even play a Gbmaj7. :rolleyes:

    Uh... I dunno what chord it is. The way you've written it out, it looks like it would sound very dischordant, because the notes are very close together interval wise. Maybe if the notes were swapped around someone it might look better... I dunno. I'm no doctor.

    And as for the programme... not that I know of.

    Sorry I couldn't be of any help. But jeez... C#min2sus4-5maj7... :confused: :D
     
  3. embellisher

    embellisher Holy Ghost filled Bass Player Staff Member Supporting Member

    Well, the name I came up with has all of the chord tones in it.:D But I am sure there is a better name for it. Yeah, it is a pretty dissonant chord. Too muddy for the bass, but it works on the guitar.
     
  4. Wrong Robot

    Wrong Robot Guest

    Apr 8, 2002
    the only program I know that does this Ebony & ivory is mac-only, and it couldn't come up with anything for the notes you listed, I tried a couple voicings but couldn't give a name to it, can't you just call it the texas pentachord deluxe?
     
  5. stephanie

    stephanie

    Nov 14, 2000
    Scranton, PA
    But can it still be a major chord when it's missing the 3rd? I understand dominant 7ths are used with suspensions but I never saw a major 7th :confused:. And to make things even more confusing we can change the Bb to it's enharmonic, A#, and add a 6th in there :D.
     
  6. embellisher

    embellisher Holy Ghost filled Bass Player Staff Member Supporting Member

    But in the octave that the Bb/A# would occupy, it would be either a b15 or a 14, right?

    Funny how I came up with this. I was noodling on guitar after practicing some scales, and messing around with short intervals. Then I came up with the original chord as a lick. Thought it sounded pretty cool, though dissonant. Then I thought, using open strings, I could play it as a chord. Sounds cool arpeggiated, but totally wicked as a chord.
     
  7. embellisher

    embellisher Holy Ghost filled Bass Player Staff Member Supporting Member

    Overlooked the part about the missing third. I am still learning theory. The interval is a minor(or flat) 2nd, but I think you may be right about the chord name. Major/minor in a chord name refer specifically to the tonality of the third, correct?
     
  8. Wrong Robot

    Wrong Robot Guest

    Apr 8, 2002
    the Bb/A# wouldn't be a 15th or a 14th, such a thing does not exist. it'd either be a raised 6th or a flatted 7th methinks.
     
  9. wulf

    wulf

    Apr 11, 2002
    Oxford, UK
    How about D7sus4/C#? D, F# and C have a strong relationship (D7) and, according to Levine's Jazz Theory Workbook, it's not uncommon for a sus4 chord to include the third as well as the fourth, especially in modern jazz voicings. That would make the high Bb a b13.

    To some extent, the "correct" answer depends on the context in which the chord is played but the name doesn't have to be built on the lowest note - you have to take slash chords and inversions into account and look for the strong relationships and functional role of that combination of notes.

    Wulf
     
  10. leanne

    leanne

    May 29, 2002
    Rochester, NY
    I'd write it as D7sus4/C# (??) What's the context? I'd think that would make it a lot clearer.

    Edit: oops, didn't read all the posts--yeah, I agree with Wulf.
     
  11. wulf

    wulf

    Apr 11, 2002
    Oxford, UK
    ... minds think alike. I'll leave someone else to decide what goes in the blank! ;)

    Wulf
     
  12. stephanie

    stephanie

    Nov 14, 2000
    Scranton, PA
    Slash chord didn't even cross my mind! Now, that sounds just about right. :)

    Major/minor in a chord name refer specifically to the tonality of the third, correct?

    True. But in this sense I was looking at the 7th. I've never seen a suspension with a major 7th, only as a dominant 7th (or without a 7th). C#7sus = C# F# G# B. Not saying there isn't such thing, I'm not sure, but I've never come across it lol.

    And if you were going for a C#maj7b5 - C# E# G B# - we'd be missing the E# in this example.
     
  13. Wrong Robot

    Wrong Robot Guest

    Apr 8, 2002
     
  14. Ed Fuqua

    Ed Fuqua

    Dec 13, 1999
    NYC
    Chuck Sher publishes my book, WALKING BASSICS:The Fundamentals of Jazz Bass Playing.
    That's a mess, what the hell are you playing this in? I'm not sitting at the piano, but there are so many dissonances in here, it ain't even funny.
    The only unambiguous relationship is between the D and F#, a nice major third, everything else is either too close or a 4th/5th relationtionship. Maybe a polychord , C/Dmaj7?

    Same with the other one, first thing I see is a Gmin chord (in 2nd inversion, D G Bb) or a minor/maj 7th ( G Bb D F#), maybe a polychord of Bb-9/Gmaj?

    Have you really played these?

    Looking at the first one again, you really have the implied F# against G (F# C# against G D), I dunno, I can't make too much sense out of it.
     
  15. wulf

    wulf

    Apr 11, 2002
    Oxford, UK
    I don't think it's one for a beginner's book of chords! :D

    I think it would be a good test of chord naming software but I don't have any. However, I think it is a skill worth learning rather than having to rely on software - if you've got a bunch of musicians together who can spell chords it makes communication a lot easier. Fortunately chords like the example given are likely to be the exception rather than the rule!

    Wulf
     
  16. quallabone

    quallabone

    Aug 2, 2003
    Your chord is almost as annoying as my 2nd term improv exam. Well here goes.

    The chord you're playing is implying a C#mi/Ma7 chord and extensions

    C#, E, G#, C, (D, Bb)
    So the chord that is being implied is a C#mi/Ma7 (b9,13)


    One by one the notes can be sub'd into what your chord is.

    Keep the C# as the root

    Sub F# for E (11 for b3)

    Sub G for G# (#11 for 5)

    Now you get

    C#, F#, G, C (D,Bb) Which is totally disgusting but I'll trust you.

    There's nothing you can really call this chord in this form as it is just a bunch of chordtone subs. Since the 3rd isn't being shown there is no frame of reference...

    As stated earlier the chord in its simplest form is a C#mi/Ma7(b9,13)
    Your chord is a magical






    *Edit* - the above is stupid.

    New thought that works better......

    C#dim/Ma7 (b9,13)

    C#, E, G, C, (D, Bb)

    the only note missing from the chord is the E (b3) which is a chord sub for the F# in your chord (11 for b3)

    Once the E is plugged in we have a perfect C#dim/Ma7 (b9,13)

    Original notes = C#, F#, G, C (D,Bb)
    New notes = C#, E, G, C, (D,Bb)

    This preserves your chord the most. Notating the chord would look like

    C#dim/Ma7 (b9,nat11,13, omit b3)
     
  17. leanne

    leanne

    May 29, 2002
    Rochester, NY
    I guess I didn't realize this was how you came up with the notes. In this context, there can't be much of an answer, there is no context even. I don't see much reason in even thinking about it (how to write the chord), it could be anything. What do you want it to fit into? What's your intended root???

    I'm not trying to be rude, just practical. It's not really time well spent, in my opinion.

    Leanne
     
  18. wulf

    wulf

    Apr 11, 2002
    Oxford, UK
    It's useful to put a name on something you stumble across - it makes it easier to pull it out again later.

    Wulf
     
  19. Phil Smith

    Phil Smith Mr Sumisu 2 U

    May 30, 2000
    Peoples Republic of Brooklyn
    Creator of: iGigBook for Android/iOS
    D7(11)/C# and D7(11b13)/C# for the other one.
     
  20. wulf

    wulf

    Apr 11, 2002
    Oxford, UK
    D7(11) would suggest a spelling of D F# C G to me. Actually, I'd probably write that as D7+11 or even D11 (if I wasn't too bothered about the possible inclusion of E as the ninth). However, D7sus would imply to me that I should consider the fourth within the span of the base triad rather than as an extension above it.

    Meanwhile, quallabone's suggestion looks too complex. I've come across minor/maj7 chords but starting to spin a list of subsitutions seems a lot more complex than just taking a different note as the root (unless the musical context gave a compelling reason for building from C#). It may be right but it doesn't, at my level of understanding, make it any easier to grasp.

    Wulf