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what's their problem?

Discussion in 'Off Topic [BG]' started by john turner, Feb 10, 2003.


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  1. john turner

    john turner You don't want to do that. Trust me. Staff Member Administrator

    Mar 14, 2000
    atlanta ga
    it's one thing to not agree with the u.s.'s actions, it's entirely another to become an ally of iraq

    http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/02/10/sprj.irq.wrap/index.html

    what possible gain could there be in blocking troops being sent to turkey to protect it from iraqi aggression? saddam has shown himself to do worse things than attack his neighbors before.

    you know, i realize there are business interests at stake here for france and germany that make them more prone to be against a war, but to block or stall efforts to protect a supposed ally in a time of crisis is irresponsible and vile.
     
  2. Johnny BoomBoom

    Johnny BoomBoom Supporting Member

    Jun 8, 2001
    Glasgow, Scotland
    I always thought NATO was an organisation where each of the members looked after each other.....:(
     
  3. Lodging a formal protest is one thing, but this is juvenile.
     
  4. john turner

    john turner You don't want to do that. Trust me. Staff Member Administrator

    Mar 14, 2000
    atlanta ga
  5. john turner

    john turner You don't want to do that. Trust me. Staff Member Administrator

    Mar 14, 2000
    atlanta ga
  6. JMX

    JMX Vorsprung durch Technik

    Sep 4, 2000
    Cologne, Germany
    So it's "you're either with us or against us" time again, huh?

    So Germany had business with Iraq, so did other countries, the U.S.A. also, btw. Former U.S. governments and agencies even directly(!) nurtured Sadam into the political force he was before the second Gulf war.
    So who was the ally back then? And don't tell me he was a nicer guy back then and "we didn't know he killed and oppressed his people".

    Selective memory?

    In the matter of Turkey, I don't think our governments are totally against sending support to Turkey - and they never said so IIRC, it's just that they feel it's a bad time to do so, with the inspectors still at work. And that's all there is to it.
    Nobody here is bonding with Iraq, or against the US in general. But we're against starting a war with no regard for global consequences. That's all. And there's a growing feeling of anger at the way Donald Rumsfeld (in particular) and others are trying to bully and threaten Europe back into "party line".
    Also, pray tell me what actual aggression of Iraq you're referring to? Thanks.
     
  7. JMX

    JMX Vorsprung durch Technik

    Sep 4, 2000
    Cologne, Germany
  8. It's a meaningless gesture with three aircraft carrier battle groups and a couple of hundred thousand troops on their way, you know.

    What you and the war-is-never-an-option crowd don't seem to understand is that there is nothing backing up the inspections without the threat of military force. There is, for all intents and purposes, no further non-military punishment that the UN can deal Iraq.

    Is the Bush administration going about this in a meatheaded way? Sure. But it obviously seems to be dragging the European governments down into the mud with it.
     
  9. OnederTone

    OnederTone Aguilar Everywhere Gold Supporting Member

    Aug 15, 2002
    Thornton, CO
    yep that's us. Those greedy damn Americans.

    1. Hussien has the ability, desire, and intention for manufacture, distribution, and execution of Chemcial and biological wepons.

    2. he has willingly supported either actively or by inaction Groups responsible for the 9/11 WTC attacks.

    3. America neither needs nor wants Germany's, France's, or any other nations support.

    the people in America could care less that there is oil under the sand in Iraq. We do care that there is a man with a desire to see all of western culture (France and Germany included) destroyed sitting in Bagdad.
     
  10. JMX

    JMX Vorsprung durch Technik

    Sep 4, 2000
    Cologne, Germany
    Indications and hearsay. Powell didn't offer hard proof. This wasn't a reason for war in the last years. All of a sudden it is?


    Hearsay.
    Again, hard proof?

    So why the big commotion? I you don't want and need us, why so angry at us when we dare to have differing opinions?


    Hm, in a perfect world you'd be right, but in the light of Bush's origins, and the fact that US oil consumption, already twice(!) as high as any other industrial country, is still rising, and US oil resources are only likely to last 10 years or so, it does make some sense.
     
  11. JMX, don't mention Oil: I already got my face nearly taken off in a post. And I just mentioned an opinion in a mild way.
     
  12. odie

    odie Supporting Member

    JT- You're a pretty fair guy. But dont you think this would be considered offensive enough just to start an arguement? Or is that what you are looking for. A no hold, full blown fisticuffs kind of thread.

    Thats cool!!

    If so Im taking the day off!! ;) :)
     
  13. Brooks

    Brooks

    Apr 4, 2000
    Middle East
    And exactly how could Iraq possibly attack Turkey??? They are not able to deal with poorly equipped Kurds, let alone with huge, well equipped Turkish army. US tried to put extra pressure on Iraq by having NATO troops in southern Turkey to 'protect' Turkey. Other NATO members saw through this ploy, and blocked it. That's all there is to it.
     
  14. OnederTone

    OnederTone Aguilar Everywhere Gold Supporting Member

    Aug 15, 2002
    Thornton, CO
    So why the big commotion? I you don't want and need us, why so angry at us when we dare to have differing opinions?

    You're right. I wasted too much time on this as it is.
     
  15. ZuluFunk

    ZuluFunk

    Apr 14, 2001
    Pennsylvania
    Part 1 - were talking during the time the UN sanctions had been in place post-1991.

    Part 2 - Nobody is trying to threaten Europe. What threat has been posed? If anything, it's not eve n Europe, not even NATO for that matter...Just France, Germany, and Belgium. They are only 3 members, the other 16 are for upholding their mutual defense.

    Why France and Germany in particular presume to speak for NATO and Europe in general seems a bit egotistical.
     
  16. JMX

    JMX Vorsprung durch Technik

    Sep 4, 2000
    Cologne, Germany
    During that time numerous US companies also did business with Iraq. Somebody posted a link to an article about this. I'll add it here as soon as I find it.

    Rumsfeld said there will be "bilateral actions" and several projects concerning the US army in Germany were canceled. Also, German Krauss-Maffei suddenly lost a major tank contract for the US army. The US also threatens to leave NATO.

    Enough to be called a threat? I think it's even more than that.

    Friend or Foe?
    http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,234557,00.html

    US to close millitary bases in Germany
    http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/0,1518,234536,00.html

    Rumsfeld threatening with sanctions:
    http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,234424,00.html

    [I'll try to find some links in English]
    I don't recall anyone saying that. Apart from that they're two of the major countries in the EU, both in population numbers and economical power.
     
  17. JMX

    JMX Vorsprung durch Technik

    Sep 4, 2000
    Cologne, Germany
    Oh, and by the way.
    Germany will send Patriot missile systems to Turkey by the end of the week, so it's not like we don't support Turkey at all. [see last link if you have German]
     
  18. This thread makes me laugh. People think that they know everything about this situation and that the internet or even the Western media is a reliable source of unbiased info.

    Geoff
     
  19. It's politics, pure and simple. Germany is attempting to come into its own right as a military power after being little more than the US's "German Division" during the cold war. They are an independant nation with their own interests and are eager to shed their identity of being a US puppet, whether such a feeling is justifed or not.

    Friends disagree. It happens. It's how the disagreement is handled that shows the mettle of the parties involved. To a certain degree, national pride is at stake and the Germans I know are justifiably tired of being apologetic for the sins of their grandfathers.

    Belgium is also highly sensitive and is simply "bucking at the reins" to indicate that with the threat of the Soviet apparently gone, it would like to practice foreign policy that will benefit itself over the United States, self-interest, nothing more. The US does it all the time.

    France has a finacial interest in Irag. So do the US and Britain. It's a matter of the winner getting the spoils, and France is not willing to share their near exclusive oil contracts iwth Iraq.

    That's my 2 cents and if I've offended anyone, I'm sorry. My ability to respond is VERY limited right now. I'm recovering from a kidney operation and I fade in and out of consciousness.
     
  20. odie

    odie Supporting Member

    Interesting interpretation Pyscho.
     



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