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Where is our sense of self worth?????

Discussion in 'Miscellaneous [BG]' started by Joe Nerve, Dec 20, 2002.

  1. Joe Nerve

    Joe Nerve Supporting Member

    Oct 7, 2000
    New York City
    Endorsing artist: Musicman basses
    Read something in a recent EM magazine that got me thinking. Somebody wrote a letter complaining how he has artist freinds who do a painting in a day or so, have it printed up, and then sell them for $60 to $80 a peice. He spends over a year working on a CD, puts thousands of dollars into the recording of it, pays about the same to have copies run off, uses artists, engineers, other musicians.... and when he tries to sell it for $10, people complain and expect him to give the CD to them for free. He adds that this is the experience of others he knows also, so it's not a reflection of his music. It has been my experience also.

    Music is getting easier and easeir to download off of computers for free. I work at a HS and a huge number of kids have mp3 players now. If not, their cds are mostly full of songs they've downloaded off of the internet. Some kids even sell cds they burn.

    Bands play for free all the time all over the city, DJ's have taken their places at lots and lots of weddings and clubs (paying gigs) - and even DJs can (and usually do) get their music for free.

    Record companies rape artists on a daily basis and the only artists that make any real money are more businesses than an artists - brittney, backstreet boys, etc. they even say that the music is like a tiny little part of huge corporation that these people have become.

    it seems it's getting harder and harder to earn a living as a musician. why do we seem to put so little monetary value on the gifts we have and the work we do?

    i've got lots of thoughts about all this but i figured i'd just lay the groundwork here and let you guys tear it up a bit.
  2. lump


    Jan 17, 2000
    St. Neots, UK
    And Metallica were @$$holes for taking on Napster. :rolleyes:

    Part of the problem is that more people can fake their way through a IV-V-I progression than can paint a picture. But regardless, musicians need to stand up for themselves and the right to control the distribution of their art. And their peers need to stop tearing down those who do.
  3. OK.. Just to start off - I DO use Kazaa & WinMX, but only to download live videos & mp3's... Where else COULD I get this stuff?

    I don't think that this is killing the bands out there though.. I mean, they are doing high paid gigs, that are also being recorded, not by them - by the media. So there's more money.

    For the people like us, here on TB, I do think that we are getting screwed somewhat when it comes to gigs... If that's your living there's a problem, becuase it seems to me that it's becoming practically impossible to not be a pop band and get a record deal. :(

    I dunno... I guess you just gotta keep going on and do the best you can [​IMG]
  4. Josh Ryan

    Josh Ryan - that dog won't hunt, Monsignor. Supporting Member

    Mar 24, 2001
    That's a great question Joe! I think people have touched upon the problem when they talk about not letting record companies bend you over, and instead selling your CD on CD Baby or CDstreet. We need ot adapt to survive right? The web is (comparatively) cheap advertising and retail, we need to use it better. Not that's it's going to magically even the playing field or anything, but it can help.
  5. beermonkey


    Sep 26, 2001
    Seattle, WA
    This problem will continue to get worse. Right now, there is an entire generation of kids that are growing up that have never paid for music. They use Kazaa, WinMX, newsgroups, etc.. to find music, download it, then burn it to disc. Do you think that they will suddenly decide, "Oh, I'm actually going to go out and buy this CD" when they are making enough money to afford it? No, of course not. They are used to getting music for free.
  6. Wrong Robot

    Wrong Robot Guest

    Apr 8, 2002
    yikes....thats a good point...I never thought about then next generations of kids that may inevitably never pay for music, but what will happen then? will artists stop making cds? whats the point if it only costs money and times and doesn't make any profit....thats a scary thought....I don't think it will happen, but It certainly could be possible:eek:
  7. Joe Nerve

    Joe Nerve Supporting Member

    Oct 7, 2000
    New York City
    Endorsing artist: Musicman basses
    Wow! that just gave me a thought? maybe all musicians SHOULD stop recording music and go back to the old days where music was live or it wasn't at all.

    would the corner barber shop hire a band if they wanted music all day? hmmm........
  8. Wrong Robot

    Wrong Robot Guest

    Apr 8, 2002
    Yeah that thought crossed my mind too, a total revolution inm the music industry, once it is derailed in a few years by teens with 8000 mp3s that don't ever buy music of their own. all bands will make their livign giging then eventually it will start over again and cds will be popular again and the world will rejoice.
  9. Boplicity

    Boplicity Supporting Member

    Said it before and I'll say it again...this wouldn't have come about if the greedy profit-hungry record companies didn't charge exhorbibant rates for CDs. Fact is they have priced themselves out of the market. It was only inevitable that technology would be developed to circumnavigate the record companies and price-fixing record outlets.

    Technology is expensive, but it seems cheaper when CDs are so high. Musicians haven't particularly benefited from the high prices of CDs, but unfortunately they are the ones who are suffering most from the new technology.

    I don't know where all this will lead. If the record companies would lower Cds back to late 1980s prices, maybe the downloading would stop---or not. Maybe once the water has been let out of the dam, there is no putting it back.

    So what are musicians to do who want to earn a fair living for their product? I just don't know. Once people think something should be free, how can you ever get them to pay again? Maybe sponsors will have to pay like the sponsor tours now and TV shows. Then the public gets their music "free", but they will have to listen to advertisements before, after and during the music.
    Corporate sponsorship has a big downside, though...corporate control...the biggest bugbear of creativity.
  10. Stephen S

    Stephen S Member

    Apr 10, 2002
    San Bernardino, CA
    Ok feel free to correct me if im wrong but, don't musicians make more money touring then when they sell CD's? Lets not forget about merch, if a band prints up some T-shirts and sells those at every show they play they will be able to make loads of cash without the record company touching on their profit. If a band makes a CD and uses it to draw people in to their live show then their CD would be making them money. Over time I think this would eliminate the bands that can't play their instruments or put on any kind of live show.
  11. fclefgeoff

    fclefgeoff Supporting Member

    Jan 3, 2002
    Personally, I am a bit of a stickler for audio quality and therefore buy CD's. I may download songs to find artists that I like but generally if I like something, I'd rather go buy it to hear it the way it was intended to be heard instead of listening to a cheap, compressed xerox copy of it. Unfortunately, not everyone thinks this way. Good Thread, Joe.
  12. LiquidMidnight


    Dec 25, 2000
    All great points you brought up Joe. I guess my only answer is "You have to love what you do and take the money as a fringe benefit". I know the sucky feeling of walking out of a bar with 25 bucks for, what you would total up as probaly about 6 hours of work (rehearsal, driving, setup and then actually playing).

    As far as mp3s, mp3.com is the only place I download music because it's there by the artist consent. Being a musician, I wouldn't feel right downloading music if I didn't know if an artist consented to it or not. I agree with Blisshead, places like garageband.com and cdbaby.com are putting the power or music where it should be:Back in the hands of the artist.

    If you buy a cd at a major record store, the average price is 17 dollars. (of course you can buy cds a bit cheaper at wal-mart ect, but they usually don't have as big of selection) No wonder people don't want to pay that much for a cd. Espcially when majority of that price is going toward marketing.
  13. jazzbo


    Aug 25, 2000
    San Francisco, CA
    When the product's good enough, it will succeed. Break the mold and create something fantastic.
  14. SMASH

    SMASH Guest

    Jan 18, 2000
    How many "artists" can charge $100 per ticket and sell 60000 of them in each city to people who wanna watch them paint?

    How many "artists" can sell $3 t-shirts at $40 a pop, and sell thousands per night?

    How many "artists" get a royalty every time someone looks at their picture?

    How many "artists" ever sell a single thing, much less prints for $60 a pop?

    Music is a very stupid thing to get into if you're trying to get paid. For that matter so is "art". So if you're doing it, just do your best and do it for love.

    I, for one, am quite happy to share my gift for whatever comes back to me. I personally question if music was ever meant to be paid for, given it is so elementary to the human soul. It's very very addictive too, so it's almost logical to me that someone who can't afford it will "steal" it. I would too I suppose if it wasn't easier for me to walk to the store and buy it than it is to find it, download it, and burn it.

    At the end of the day I need music more than Sabbath, The Who, or Britney need another dollar. I know it's very wrong, but I am talking about an addiction and not morality here, which is something I am sure Sabbath and The Who know a lot about and one day Britney will probably learn about it too. So be it.

    It's simply the way of the world and complaining won't do much to turn the tide. Either rock, roll, or get out of the way because a better band will come along and take your place. Sad, but true. Can't afford a Metallica record? Not allowed to download it? You can have my record instead. It's free, it's better, and it rocks harder.

    Brave New World, for good or ill.
  15. Fuzzbass

    Fuzzbass P5 with overdrive Gold Supporting Member

    Despite kazaa and increasing CD prices, CD sales continue to rise (through last year, anyway). The only ones possibly hurt by mp3 are the superstars who are already rich. For the up-and-comers and newly-arriveds, mp3 sharing is good publicity.

    The industry is screwing the artist and the fan. Only the superduperstars make money from CD sales. Part of the problem is that so many bands are willing to do anything for that big break that they sign those standard contracts which guarantee that they won't make any money. Some are clueless, others value fame more than money.
  16. Jeff Moote

    Jeff Moote Supporting Member

    Oct 11, 2001
    Beamsville, ON, Canada
    A few good points have been thrown out here: CDs are too expensive now: so I buy them used mostly. Audio of mp3's is inferrior, so you have to buy stuff...
  17. AltIII


    Sep 3, 2002
    I don't think Mp3 sharing should be illegalized. How else can you hear a artist's stuff before you waste money on it? and "sample" tracks don't cut it, they're always taken out of context.
    I think, if anything, mp3 players and cd recording should be banned. That way people, legally, have to stick to mp3s on thier pc (not that they would).

    Free mp3s are the greatest thing to happen to bloaks who like to be more adventure-some with thier listening pleasure, but don't want to end up bruising thier wallet and cluttering their cd-bins with junk. They're not even 100% fool proof, the artists have to well known enough for at least one other person to have heard of them, counting the artist themselves.
  18. I agree totally with SMASH. I'm a freelance bassist, but I have a day gig to pay the bills. When someone phones me with a gig, I dont ask what it pays, my first thoughts are "Will this be fun, will I meet new people, will I learn new songs, will I play a genre I've never played before?" If I dont like the sound of the gig I say no thanks. I have yet, after many, many years to be insulted by being paid peanuts, even though I did'nt ask what the pay was. My point? Do it for love of it, and the rewards will come in one form or another. The best pay I've ever had? In financial terms, $1000, but that pales into insignificance compared to some wonderful friendships I've made with guys I've met at gigs.
  19. odie

    odie Supporting Member

    Well I was in High School in the late 80's and early 90's.

    Guess what I dubbed tapes all time. I recorded LP's all the time. I recorded CD's all the time.

    Why?? I was a kid and thats what kids do. They dont have $$$$ to buy things at $12-16 a pop.

    We still bought them if we liked them. A dub was never as good as an original.

    Guess what Mp'3 dont sound as good as a original.

    If you're a kid and you dig a band you want the liner notes etc, the case etc.

    Kazaa/Napster didnt change anything. Its not a musicians enemy.

    The industry is what is killing musicians.
  20. SMASH

    SMASH Guest

    Jan 18, 2000
    Lar$ Ul(tra)rich was a bigtime tape trader (ie: trader of bootleg recordings) and if it wasn't for tape traders Metallica would never have gotten anywhere at all and subsequently made them all multi-millionaires.

    That does not mean it is OK to "steal" their "music" if they don't want you to, but it is an amusing irony.

    And to his/their credit, the band chanelled a lot of $$$ back to their influences via their cover versions/albums.

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