Why isn't FRET BINDING more popular?

[InstantEctobass]

Hello there bass maker!

I'm not making/crafting bass guitars myself, just assembling at best. Soldering stuff, etc. But when it comes to the fact that I had over 50 bass guitars in my collection (and I currently have 8 and a half [a neck that misses a body to bond with]), the ones that I disliked the most were my Mexican and American Fenders. For one particular detail. Hear me out, if you will.

And first of all, no I'm not talking about NECK/FINGERBOARD BINDING, but rather 'just' FRET BINDING, or this:

If I understand correctly, the slot for the fret is cut on the whole width of the neck's fingerboard, then the fret is installed with the barb cut on both side so that it doesn't go "outside" of the fingerboard, and once the actual "playing" part of the fret is cut and finished, the side of the fingerboard is filled with wood dust and glue. Am I right?

And that is big. Because all the bass guitars I had that didn't have this particular work done on frets, they also had "sharp" fingerboard edges, as opposed as "rounded" edges. And they were just AWFUL to play and feel. Even including a very expensive American Original 60s Jazz Bass from FMIC. Also had two Mexican (Classic 60s models) and that was the same deal. And inside the collection of 50 bass guitars that I owned and own, I never had such an issue with Squiers, or Corts. Because they had the bound frets.

So my question is :

Why aren't more brands, and mainly the most expensive ones, doing that?

If the answer would be "because this is time consuming"...

I mean, in that case, I have another question... If Squier (which is owned by FMIC) can offers $129 instruments with comfy frets, why can't they with the nearly $1000 to 2500 ones?



After all, maybe it ALSO can be a personal preference some will say. And I'm no bass god, I don't craft or make, so who am I to judge? But just as a casual player and sucker for comfy necks, I hated all my 4 Fenders for that particular reason: not truly the fact that the frets weren't bound, but the fact that I could feel the barbs and that I know that necks are prone to shrinking and you have to get them dressed from time to time. Because I never got my fret dressed again on my lesser expensive instruments, ever. But one exception is the 1992 StingRay that I had on which I couldn't feel the fret barbs at all. So I guess I just had bad bananas for Fender and I'm not looking at things the right way?

 

[Bruce Johnson]

Many of us small Luthiers do things like that to our basses to round off and smooth out the ends of the frets and the edges. There are different techniques.

The bigger manufacturers don't do it because it adds too much labor and cost. They're fighting for every penny to keep their costs low to survive. You are welcome to write to Fender and argue how they need to increase their costs and lower their prices. But I don't think they'll listen to you.

Here's one thread where we talked about different ways to make fret ends smoother. This includes some talk of filling the ends of the slots.

https://www.talkbass.com/threads/perfectly-rounded-fret-ends.1330475/

 

[InstantEctobass]

Many of us small Luthiers do things like that to our basses to round off and smooth out the ends of the frets and the edges. There are different techniques.

The bigger manufacturers don't do it because it adds too much labor and cost. They're fighting for every penny to keep their costs low to survive. You are welcome to write to Fender and argue how they need to increase their costs and lower their prices. But I don't think they'll listen to you.

Here's one thread where we talked about different ways to make fret ends smoother. This includes some talk of filling the ends of the slots.

https://www.talkbass.com/threads/perfectly-rounded-fret-ends.1330475/

Thank you for your answer.

That's actually what I was thinking already of course. But again, $129 Squier Debut Series: frets are bound... and they make money on that? Or... they don't?
But I was mainly aiming at the barb part of the fret, rather than the "playing" part that is above the wood/fingerboard. That's specifically that part that I don't like when it's "naked".

 

[pingvuiini]

I recently got one of the new Kala solid body uke basses and have been considering having it defretted as I generally play fretless. Upon closer inspection I discovered that the uke bass has what Kala calls 'pocket frets' which is a fret slot that doesn't go all the way to the edge and the frets themselves are nicely rounded off. It looks and feels much nicer than having the tang go all the way to the edge. I like this feature so much that I put off having it defretted.

Interestingly, this is an instrument that is probably manufactured in Asia somewhere based on the $349 price. But it's extremely well made and I feel is a fantastic value for the price point.

 

[andruca]

Looks great. Closest I had seen is Warwick/Framus' "invisible fret technology" (apparently a couple mm of wood left at fret ends). I own indeed a (Korean) ProSeries Star Bass with such kind of fretwork. NICE look and nice to the thouch.

 

[Gilmourisgod]

With CNC, cutting the fret slots is easy enough, but as Bruce said, it takes some hand work to get those hemispherical fret ends. I suppose that could be automated too, as part of a Plek job, but the current versions don’t do it AFAIK. Surprising how much hand work there is still, even on the most modern mass produced instruments.

 

[FunkHead]

That's one of the great things about Warwick: Invisible Fret Technology.

 

[ole Jason]

It looks cool but is fairly pointless in the grand scheme of things. They really don't feel any better than traditional fretwork assuming everything is set up well IMO.

FWIW I have a Warwick bass that developed fret sprout and the wood contracted enough to make the fret push through the edge of the fretboard.

 

[H K]

Hello there bass maker!

I'm not making/crafting bass guitars myself, just assembling at best. Soldering stuff, etc. But when it comes to the fact that I had over 50 bass guitars in my collection (and I currently have 8 and a half [a neck that misses a body to bond with]), the ones that I disliked the most were my Mexican and American Fenders. For one particular detail. Hear me out, if you will.

And first of all, no I'm not talking about NECK/FINGERBOARD BINDING, but rather 'just' FRET BINDING, or this:

View attachment 7021587

If I understand correctly, the slot for the fret is cut on the whole width of the neck's fingerboard, then the fret is installed with the barb cut on both side so that it doesn't go "outside" of the fingerboard, and once the actual "playing" part of the fret is cut and finished, the side of the fingerboard is filled with wood dust and glue. Am I right?

And that is big. Because all the bass guitars I had that didn't have this particular work done on frets, they also had "sharp" fingerboard edges, as opposed as "rounded" edges. And they were just AWFUL to play and feel. Even including a very expensive American Original 60s Jazz Bass from FMIC. Also had two Mexican (Classic 60s models) and that was the same deal. And inside the collection of 50 bass guitars that I owned and own, I never had such an issue with Squiers, or Corts. Because they had the bound frets.

So my question is :

Why aren't more brands, and mainly the most expensive ones, doing that?

If the answer would be "because this is time consuming"...

I mean, in that case, I have another question... If Squier (which is owned by FMIC) can offers $129 instruments with comfy frets, why can't they with the nearly $1000 to 2500 ones?



After all, maybe it ALSO can be a personal preference some will say. And I'm no bass god, I don't craft or make, so who am I to judge? But just as a casual player and sucker for comfy necks, I hated all my 4 Fenders for that particular reason: not truly the fact that the frets weren't bound, but the fact that I could feel the barbs and that I know that necks are prone to shrinking and you have to get them dressed from time to time. Because I never got my fret dressed again on my lesser expensive instruments, ever. But one exception is the 1992 StingRay that I had on which I couldn't feel the fret barbs at all. So I guess I just had bad bananas for Fender and I'm not looking at things the right way?

Mm, Mm. Hmm.. Its interesting, what you say about it being done on cheaper models, but not expensive ones. I get why they wouldnt do it on vintage models, you know, period correct and all.

But what I notice now that I think about it, seems like basses made in asian countries at the moment tend to have this feature. I have a few Modern Player Fenders, they were made in china, and the necks are possibly the best I've ever played on any fender. The first batch of Classic Vibe basses were also made in China, same factory as the Fenders IIRC, and also have the feature (plus a ton of other higher end fender stuff).

 

[74hc]

I don't look at how the frets are done, but how they feel. Many methods seem just fine to me as it comes down to how the frets are dressed and finished.

I can go to the bass wall at my local GC and see that most have frets that are incomplete in terms of finishing. It's as if many manufacturers say that finishing is needed to be done by the buyer. Warmoth says so directly because they don't know the climate of the buyers.

 

[Bruce Johnson]

Thank you for your answer.

That's actually what I was thinking already of course. But again, $129 Squier Debut Series: frets are bound... and they make money on that? Or... they don't?
But I was mainly aiming at the barb part of the fret, rather than the "playing" part that is above the wood/fingerboard. That's specifically that part that I don't like when it's "naked".

Yeah, I guess that thread I linked to didn't really cover the trimming of the fret tangs. That's a common technique to make the edge of the fingerboard look cleaner. The end of the tang of each fret is trimmed back a little bit by grinding or filing, before the fret is pressed in. Then the end of the slot is filled with glue and filed flush. Or a thin strip of wood, matching the fingerboard, is glued along the edge, making an invisible binding. There are different ways of hiding the ends of the slots. All of them involve extra steps and extra time.

If you are curious, here's a thread about a little machine I made up a couple of years ago, specifically to grind back the tangs on frets. For this exact purpose.

https://www.talkbass.com/threads/fret-tang-grinding-machine.1365463/

 

[jTrolt]

Recently purchased a Sadowsky Metro Express, and was pleasantly surprised by this detail of the pocketed fret grooves and nicely rounded fret ends.
Why are they showing up this way on so many instruments?
My guess:
Whatever factory is making all these necks recently acquired a machine to cut/trim frets this way. Probably does both ends simultaneously, as it's cutting to precise size and shaping/buffing those ends on each fret.
As for the grooves themselves? They're stopped short of running through the edge of the neck, so no filler/dressing required, at least on the Sadowsky and other pocketed fingerboards, so that's some labor saved. Also eliminates the risk of tear out as the bit exits the edge of the fretboard = possibly fewer rejected /wasted fingerboards(?)
I'd love to go tour a factory some time, as the answers are probably quite obvious, once you dig in and see how it's being done.
Still, it's fun to guess....

 

[Jeff Hughes]

Fret binding just doesn’t look right on every instrument. It also adds an additional step to the manufacturing process that adds to the price.

 

[skycruiser]

Hello there bass maker!

I'm not making/crafting bass guitars myself, just assembling at best. Soldering stuff, etc. But when it comes to the fact that I had over 50 bass guitars in my collection (and I currently have 8 and a half [a neck that misses a body to bond with]), the ones that I disliked the most were my Mexican and American Fenders. For one particular detail. Hear me out, if you will.

And first of all, no I'm not talking about NECK/FINGERBOARD BINDING, but rather 'just' FRET BINDING, or this:

View attachment 7021587

If I understand correctly, the slot for the fret is cut on the whole width of the neck's fingerboard, then the fret is installed with the barb cut on both side so that it doesn't go "outside" of the fingerboard, and once the actual "playing" part of the fret is cut and finished, the side of the fingerboard is filled with wood dust and glue. Am I right?

And that is big. Because all the bass guitars I had that didn't have this particular work done on frets, they also had "sharp" fingerboard edges, as opposed as "rounded" edges. And they were just AWFUL to play and feel. Even including a very expensive American Original 60s Jazz Bass from FMIC. Also had two Mexican (Classic 60s models) and that was the same deal. And inside the collection of 50 bass guitars that I owned and own, I never had such an issue with Squiers, or Corts. Because they had the bound frets.

So my question is :

Why aren't more brands, and mainly the most expensive ones, doing that?

If the answer would be "because this is time consuming"...

I mean, in that case, I have another question... If Squier (which is owned by FMIC) can offers $129 instruments with comfy frets, why can't they with the nearly $1000 to 2500 ones?



After all, maybe it ALSO can be a personal preference some will say. And I'm no bass god, I don't craft or make, so who am I to judge? But just as a casual player and sucker for comfy necks, I hated all my 4 Fenders for that particular reason: not truly the fact that the frets weren't bound, but the fact that I could feel the barbs and that I know that necks are prone to shrinking and you have to get them dressed from time to time. Because I never got my fret dressed again on my lesser expensive instruments, ever. But one exception is the 1992 StingRay that I had on which I couldn't feel the fret barbs at all. So I guess I just had bad bananas for Fender and I'm not looking at things the right way?

The 11th fret in you picture looks shorter than the others.

 

[rudy4444]

I undercut the tang on all of my instruments and fill the slot as part of the fretting process. I think fret tang ends visible at the side of the neck are unattractive.

 

[Bruce Johnson]

Here's an example of using wood strip binding to hide the ends of the fret slots. This is one of my Walnut AMB-2's, a walnut neck with a Macassar ebony fingerboard.

After radiusing and slotting the fingerboard, I set it up in this fixture and rout a small rabbit along both edges of the fingerboard.

Then I glued on thin strips of walnut along the edges. The little aluminum squares keep the glue out of the slots. I could have used strips of Macassar ebony, even cut from that exact fingerboard blank. That would have made them nearly invisible. That what Warwick is doing. But I chose walnut because I wanted the look of walnut binding.

The walnut strips are then trimmed even with the sides of the neck and the surface of the fingerboard. And I rounded them off a little bit, because I don't like sharp edge fingerboards on my basses.

And here it is with the frets installed, before finishing. The ends of the fret tangs are ground back, using the cute little machine I showed above. The ends of the frets are filed to a small bevel, and blended to a D-shape using the Combi-Flap wheel. It makes a very neat and smooth installation.

Details like this aren't difficult to do, but they require a good amount of extra steps and labor. We small builders often add these features, but most manufacturers don't have the budget for it.

 

[Gilmourisgod]

All my necks are getting binding so i've never done it the "old school" way with exposed fret ends. I unercut the fret ends by hand, dremel, and jeweler's files, which given my glacial build pace, is good enough. Who knew I've been copping Warwick's "Invisible Fret Techonolgy" for years. Gotta love the Hype! Fender should have come up with something catchier than "neck binding",

 

[InstantEctobass]

I recently got one of the new Kala solid body uke basses and have been considering having it defretted as I generally play fretless. Upon closer inspection I discovered that the uke bass has what Kala calls 'pocket frets' which is a fret slot that doesn't go all the way to the edge and the frets themselves are nicely rounded off. It looks and feels much nicer than having the tang go all the way to the edge. I like this feature so much that I put off having it defretted.

Interestingly, this is an instrument that is probably manufactured in Asia somewhere based on the $349 price. But it's extremely well made and I feel is a fantastic value for the price point.

View attachment 7021609

This must be so comfy to play! And it looks really nice! I guess it would be harder to reproduce this on a lacquered/glossy fingerboard, though.

Looks great. Closest I had seen is Warwick/Framus' "invisible fret technology" (apparently a couple mm of wood left at fret ends). I own indeed a (Korean) ProSeries Star Bass with such kind of fretwork. NICE look and nice to the thouch.

the dream! Even better!

It looks cool but is fairly pointless in the grand scheme of things. They really don't feel any better than traditional fretwork assuming everything is set up well IMO.

FWIW I have a Warwick bass that developed fret sprout and the wood contracted enough to make the fret push through the edge of the fretboard.

Well, my point was to avoid fret barbs that needs to be dressed when the fingerboard wood (mostly when rosewood) does shrink. With fret barbs hidden behind the binding, it's not a problem anymore, so I don't think it's pointless per say. What did you do when it happened on your Warwick bass?

Mm, Mm. Hmm.. Its interesting, what you say about it being done on cheaper models, but not expensive ones. I get why they wouldnt do it on vintage models, you know, period correct and all.

But what I notice now that I think about it, seems like basses made in asian countries at the moment tend to have this feature. I have a few Modern Player Fenders, they were made in china, and the necks are possibly the best I've ever played on any fender. The first batch of Classic Vibe basses were also made in China, same factory as the Fenders IIRC, and also have the feature (plus a ton of other higher end fender stuff).

So funny you're saying that... I got 8 bass guitars and a total of 9 necks (yes, one neck misses a body). My first bass, a Cort... and all of my other basses (and thus, necks) are either 1st Gen CV Squier necks or Modern Player Fender necks. 6 Squiers, 2 Fenders. They're all amazing necks, better than my only Fender US neck that I received and sent back IMMEDIATELY. Grand Reward made Fenders and Squiers so good that they had to stop the machine. Only a few Squiers are still done in that manufacturing plant, and for the Fender Modern Player range it only lasted from 2011 to 2014... the people who know, know it was it because they were too good. Well, anyway, all these necks have fret binding. That's why I like that feature precisely and also why I can't stand naked fret barbs.

Fret binding just doesn’t look right on every instrument. It also adds an additional step to the manufacturing process that adds to the price.

Well, "doesn't look right" is more subjective tho. Having comfort over look, in my own personal preference, is better. Yes, it's an additional step, but if you read my first post, again, Indonesia, China, can do it for cheap on Squiers, and the more expensive Fenders don't have that 'luxury', so the "adds to the price" is a bit of a wrong argument.

The 11th fret in you picture looks shorter than the others.

Well caught! I guess that's the proof is was handmade and not "machined" ?

I undercut the tang on all of my instruments and fill the slot as part of the fretting process. I think fret tang ends visible at the side of the neck are unattractive.

Super clean! Great job !

Here's an example of using wood strip binding to hide the ends of the fret slots. This is one of my Walnut AMB-2's, a walnut neck with a Macassar ebony fingerboard.

View attachment 7022421

After radiusing and slotting the fingerboard, I set it up in this fixture and rout a small rabbit along both edges of the fingerboard.

View attachment 7022422

Then I glued on thin strips of walnut along the edges. The little aluminum squares keep the glue out of the slots. I could have used strips of Macassar ebony, even cut from that exact fingerboard blank. That would have made them nearly invisible. That what Warwick is doing. But I chose walnut because I wanted the look of walnut binding.

View attachment 7022423

The walnut strips are then trimmed even with the sides of the neck and the surface of the fingerboard. And I rounded them off a little bit, because I don't like sharp edge fingerboards on my basses.

View attachment 7022424

And here it is with the frets installed, before finishing. The ends of the fret tangs are ground back, using the cute little machine I showed above. The ends of the frets are filed to a small bevel, and blended to a D-shape using the Combi-Flap wheel. It makes a very neat and smooth installation.

Details like this aren't difficult to do, but they require a good amount of extra steps and labor. We small builders often add these features, but most manufacturers don't have the budget for it.

Would you call that, wood binding? Very clean as well, Bruce!

All my necks are getting binding so i've never done it the "old school" way with exposed fret ends. I unercut the fret ends by hand, dremel, and jeweler's files, which given my glacial build pace, is good enough. Who knew I've been copping Warwick's "Invisible Fret Techonolgy" for years. Gotta love the Hype! Fender should have come up with something catchier than "neck binding",

What do you mean "Fender should have come up with something catchier than neck binding"? Their way of binding the necks in the 70s was awful, though. The binding was going ABOVE the frets itself, so it added some thickness, to vintage TALL frets... I had one 70s Jazz Bass Mexican reissue... and hated it. I couldn't never go fast on that neck. Japanese 70s Jazz Bass models didn't have that problem, like the Geddy Lee model that I had. Probably my only good Fender bass. Hated all my Mexican and US models.

 

[H K]

This must be so comfy to play! And it looks really nice! I guess it would be harder to reproduce this on a lacquered/glossy fingerboard, though.



the dream! Even better!



Well, my point was to avoid fret barbs that needs to be dressed when the fingerboard wood (mostly when rosewood) does shrink. With fret barbs hidden behind the binding, it's not a problem anymore, so I don't think it's pointless per say. What did you do when it happened on your Warwick bass?



So funny you're saying that... I got 8 bass guitars and a total of 9 necks (yes, one neck misses a body). My first bass, a Cort... and all of my other basses (and thus, necks) are either 1st Gen CV Squier necks or Modern Player Fender necks. 6 Squiers, 2 Fenders. They're all amazing necks, better than my only Fender US neck that I received and sent back IMMEDIATELY. Grand Reward made Fenders and Squiers so good that they had to stop the machine. Only a few Squiers are still done in that manufacturing plant, and for the Fender Modern Player range it only lasted from 2011 to 2014... the people who know, know it was it because they were too good. Well, anyway, all these necks have fret binding. That's why I like that feature precisely and also why I can't stand naked fret barbs.

View attachment 7024930



Well, "doesn't look right" is more subjective tho. Having comfort over look, in my own personal preference, is better. Yes, it's an additional step, but if you read my first post, again, Indonesia, China, can do it for cheap on Squiers, and the more expensive Fenders don't have that 'luxury', so the "adds to the price" is a bit of a wrong argument.



Well caught! I guess that's the proof is was handmade and not "machined" ?



Super clean! Great job !



Would you call that, wood binding? Very clean as well, Bruce!



What do you mean "Fender should have come up with something catchier than neck binding"? Their way of binding the necks in the 70s was awful, though. The binding was going ABOVE the frets itself, so it added some thickness, to vintage TALL frets... I had one 70s Jazz Bass Mexican reissue... and hated it. I couldn't never go fast on that neck. Japanese 70s Jazz Bass models didn't have that problem, like the Geddy Lee model that I had. Probably my only good Fender bass. Hated all my Mexican and US models.

Hey! What a coincidence!
Grand Reward was the name of the plant? Yeah I've long had this theory about the whole china production run. Feels like they wanted to prove something, and really went ALL OUT on how good they could make em. So good infact that Fender shut it down after only a year. (Moder Player 2012-2013 only).

I've had 2 of the tele bass, and 1 of the jazzes. The jazz I havent been able to get rid of, and I regret selling the first tele. Luckily I found another.

But I only recently picked up the first gen CV. Got it for about 200$IIRC, 1 original owner and near mint. Stumbled across it while vacationing this summer, and was intrigued by what looked like upgrades, but they were factory. Quickest way to spot the jazz is by the tug-bar. No other squier jazz has ever come with that, IIRC. Has the same bridge as the MP.
But yeah, the freaking NECK on that thing. It's literally birdseye maple, on a freaking 300$ RSP bass. Beautiful figuring. And as of now, still one of the best 60's jazzes I've ever played. That thing is not leaving

So yeah, the hype about CVs and vintage modified SQ's is real, but the hidden gem within the hidden gem really is the MP or 1st gen CVs.

 

[Topkat13]

OK folks…interesting post…but let’s not fret over it.