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Why use high frequency tweeters insted of 8" speaker for upper mids?

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by Jim C, Jan 12, 2009.


  1. Jim C

    Jim C Spector#496:More curves than Sophia + better sound

    Nov 29, 2008
    Years ago I bought an EV single 15 cabinet and a dual 15 cabinet each with an 8" vented midrange driver (with attenuator).
    Other than a home built TL606 cabinet, I've used these cabinets for over 20 years. After a 5 year break from music, I'm surprised that no cabinet companies have re-explored this design as this sype of driver seems to fill a sonic void in many cabinets (IMO).

    Any good engineering thoughts on this?
     
  2. IMO: Tweeters are much cheaper than mids. People are stupid.

    Still, lots of bassists like a scooped sound, so why waste money on a driver you're not gonna use?
     
  3. greenboy

    greenboy

    Dec 18, 2000
    remote mountain cabin Montana
    greenboy designs: fEARful, bassic, dually, crazy88 etc
    Actually I ranted on that very subject today. Slap players often like the tweeter better, but almost everybody else would probably be better served using dedicated small-format midrange drivers.

    What's standing in the way of this? Well, crossover would need to be better and cost more, and the choice of dedicated midrange drivers could definitely be improved... but they already cost more than those cheap tweets. Cab design would be more intensive if you want it done right.

    So. Until the better cab designers feel that they can offset the cost and that the demand is high enough for them to bother, we'll continue to see cheap tweets {sometimes with fancier horns on them though;}

    I myself usually gig with a dedicated midrange design, or a three-way design.
     
  4. I like your idea. The Acmes and Accugrooves use both, so your idea must have some merit.
     
  5. seanm

    seanm I'd kill for a Nobel Peace Prize! Supporting Member

    Feb 19, 2004
    Ottawa, Canada
    I have a 12" with a 6" mid, that is roughly like a 15" with an 8" mid :p

    attachment.

    I specifically asked for a tweeter-less design to tame my CXL-112 which was a bit too hi-fi for my tastes and Don recommended the 6".
     
  6. bongomania

    bongomania Gold Supporting Member Commercial User

    Oct 17, 2005
    PDX, OR
    owner, OVNIFX and OVNILabs
    That is the exact approach I intend to follow with the next cabs I buy. Probably built by LDS, incidentally. :p I want a pair, each with a 15 and either a 6 or an 8, no tweet.
     
  7. Fuzzbass

    Fuzzbass P5 with overdrive Supporting Member

    To condense what Greenboy said: mid drivers are more expensive and there isn't enough demand for them. IMO the majority of bass players accept tweetered cabs as state of the art, no reason for them to consider other options.



    I have to add that choosing between tweeter, mid driver, or woofers alone is a matter of personal preference. My favorite cab has six 10" woofers, nothing else.
     
  8. JimmyM

    JimmyM

    Apr 11, 2005
    Apopka, FL
    Endorsing: Ampeg Amps, EMG Pickups
    More and more cab makers are coming around to the mid drivers. For me they're unnecessary, but it's nice to see more companies use them. I must say I think us discussing them at TB is having some impact on the cab designers, at least smaller ones.
     
  9. Jazzdogg

    Jazzdogg Less barking, more wagging!

    Jul 29, 2006
    San Diego, CA
    The three cabinets I use the most are three-way designs (Dr. Bass 2460, Dr. Bass 1580, Euphonic Audio VL208).

    I'm one of those old farts who can't stand fret clatter or string noise; I'd probably be perfectly happy without any tweeters at all. If I were to design my own cabinet, it'd probably have a separate well-damped enclosure for the "woofers" and have the mid-range drivers mounted on an angled baffle - aimed upward toward my ears so I could hear myself clearly on crowded stages.
     
  10. On the other hand, I feel tweeters in bass cabs are unnecessary. The HF content above 3Khz can, IMHO, be provided adequately by a good MR driver.

    There is certainly more bass guitar frequency content from 500Hz to 3000Hz than from 3KHz and up!!

    IMHO, IME!!!
     
  11. mrtn400

    mrtn400

    Dec 6, 2008
    Carmichael, CA
    For my rig, I either two 1x8"s or a 1x8" and a 1x15". I've always played through 8"s, and I can't live without them now.
     
  12. JimmyM

    JimmyM

    Apr 11, 2005
    Apopka, FL
    Endorsing: Ampeg Amps, EMG Pickups
    Let me just clarify that I don't like tweeters either. I'm currently using 15"s with no mid driver or tweeter. I'm all about 125-200 hz these days but 500-3K is also pretty important so I hear you.
     
  13. arjune

    arjune

    Oct 8, 2006
    SF, CA
    Bergantino uses midrange drivers. Just something I thought was worth mentioning. I have yet to hear one, so my GAS for one is unsubstantiated, but that doesn't make it any smaller.

    114_1412.

    Credit to Tom Bowlus.
     
  14. For some, that would work out. I've never heard a cab with only a mid driver and no tweeter (or for that matter, a production three way bass cab) that didn't sound a bit dark to me. If you want more 1K in your tone than 4K, I guess the mid driver is fine. If you want some sparkle in your sound (similar to what you would get when playing through a large front of house system) not so much.

    The little bit of EQing I do is basically to dial a bit of upper mid out of my sound (that 1K gank) without losing a sweet upper treble response.

    My least favorite speakers, in this order, are EA VL, Acme, Accugroove (some models anyway)....... the common theme among them is that mid driver! IMO of course.

    Per the Bergantino NV215 posted above, I dig that cab for old school tones... sounds like a good 215 cab with slightly more upper midrange extension:smug: It's interesting that most who are posting here don't like tweeters. Well, then, I guess I would say... duh, a mid driver would be better!
     
  15. linuxius

    linuxius

    Nov 28, 2008
    Wimmis, CH
    Am I mistaking or are the two cabs (LDS and Bergantino) pictured above using Eminence Alpha 6 midrange drivers?

    I also used the Alpha 6 in the cabs I build myself for the same reasons mentioned above. The one problem I still have is designing a proper filter for it since the Alpha has a lower SPL than the two Deltalites it will be a challenge.

    See crappy picture of my cab below.
    [​IMG]
     
  16. alexclaber

    alexclaber Commercial User

    Jun 19, 2001
    Brighton, UK
    Director - Barefaced Ltd
    Whilst this does depend to a degree on your personal preference I think most bass players would find my cab with a midrange driver relatively bright. However most mid drivers aren't as sensitive as most woofer arrays and certainly not as sensitive as horn tweeters - so rather than the response curve having a dip in the mids and then being higher in the treble than the bass you're more likely to have a gradually drooping response in the treble region vs the bass. But even this kind of more mellow treble response without any holes in the midrange is likely to be much appreciated by the hordes of players that turn their tweeter down a lot.

    Here's the kind of response you can achieve from a very high quality high sensitivity mid driver and crossover (the switch controls a smoothing circuit which effectively works as a bright switch when its bypassed).

    Alex
     

  17. +1 I can totally see some who want a bit more upper mid and treble extension than a tweeterless cab, but not the full bore treble response of a tweeter, digging this design.

    Also, as you and many others know, but unfortunately many don't, there are tweeters and then there are tweeters. I too hate a cheap, glacky sounding circuit. However, the tweeters/crossovers on the Bergantino, TecAmp, Epifani, newer Mesa cabs, etc. are just beautiful to my ear, and just extend the treble naturally IMO and IME.

    Also, as I've posted many times, a tone that might sound a touch metalic and too bright to some in a solo setting can sound quite musical and even once the cymbals and guitars start in. It always surprised me, comparing solo to 'gig' tones, how much mid and treble response relative to bass you need to project some tones into a room at volume.

    All personal taste, not better or worse IMO.
     
  18. alexclaber

    alexclaber Commercial User

    Jun 19, 2001
    Brighton, UK
    Director - Barefaced Ltd
    To give you a reference the Alpha 6" only has a sensitivity off ~94dB and rolls off above 4kHz - that's about 8dB quieter and an octave less treble extension than the mid I use so you really can't assume that one 6" driver will sound anything like another - there's more variation in these than there is in tweeters.

    Alex
     
  19. dont you hate it when your scrolling through TB and 1 picture can ruin a perfectly good pair of pants.
     
  20. linuxius

    linuxius

    Nov 28, 2008
    Wimmis, CH
    alexclaber: Do you use the Beyma 6MI90? I also looked at that one, but already ordered the Alpha 6 at that time.

    Will is be much of an improvement over the Alpha 6?