Double Bass Women in Jazz (players)

[RBrownBass]

I was in a (non-jazz) band rehearsal a few years ago and the singer (a woman) asked why there weren't many women playing in the jazz videos I watch. I don't claim to know about all or even most ensembles, but from what I see on YT, what I read in liner notes and what I hear about in stories and whatnot, the percentage of women playing jazz (not singing it) is lower than it might be in other ensembles. I'm curious about why.

Take your middle school or high school band, your average university symphonic band or orchestra. I have spent some time in each of these, both decades ago as a timpanist and a few years ago as a bassist. From what I recall and can see, those groups have as many females as males. Sure, there are more females in upper woodwinds and more males in lower brass and percussion, but there's a balance that pretty much looks like the world itself. When you get to small combo jazz, the diversity seems to shrink. Again, I'm talking about musicians, not singers. I've spent a fair amount of time since COVID online watching livestreams from places like Mezzrow, Beckett And Bird, Smalls, and two others I cannot recall atm. The men outnumber the women probably 8 to 1 for everything but vocals. I mean, there are adult playing situations that involve women to the same degree as men, but jazz doesn't seem to be one of them. Now, there was a time when women didn't earn the same pay for the same musical work, but again, jazz clubs are probably not still participating in disparate treatment.

I guess I just kind of find it weird. Is it a situation where women study, play and then put their lives to the sword for a child and spouse? Or is it one where they decide early on not to do small combo work? Or is it split down the center and I'm just not seeing in on my screen?

 

[bass player 53]

There have been and are extremely accomplished women in jazz, including Hazel Scott, Lil Hardin Armstrong, Marian McPartland, Maria Schneider, Carla Bley, and Esperanza Spalding, to name a few among many.
If you don't know these names, you most certainly should.
The jazz world, historically, has not been kind, welcoming, or nurturing to women, basically reflecting society, especially regarding working women. The working conditions, including the late jazz club hours, travel, time away from family, etc. are especially harsh for many women. There is much more that can be said about this, and I will leave it here. This is not a mysterious thing!!

 

[AGCurry]

Mine may not be a popular opinion, or a socially-acceptable one, but ... Improvisation requires taking risks, risks of "failure," and the working conditions of performing jazz may present other forms of risk. Playing from sheet music in a safe environment is much less risky.
In many (if not most) cultures, young males are more likely to take risks of all kinds and, in many cases, encouraged to do so. I observe that we, culturally, place more emphasis on safety when it comes to females.
This tendency may be fading with the increasing popularity of women's athletics, but it's a hard thing to quantify or draw correlations to music.

 

[Don Hergert]

Again, I'm talking about musicians, not singers.

Some singers might consider themselves musicians, btw.

 

[JamesGrant]

I was in a (non-jazz) band rehearsal a few years ago and the singer (a woman) asked why there weren't many women playing in the jazz videos I watch. I don't claim to know about all or even most ensembles, but from what I see on YT, what I read in liner notes and what I hear about in stories and whatnot, the percentage of women playing jazz (not singing it) is lower than it might be in other ensembles. I'm curious about why.

Take your middle school or high school band, your average university symphonic band or orchestra. I have spent some time in each of these, both decades ago as a timpanist and a few years ago as a bassist. From what I recall and can see, those groups have as many females as males. Sure, there are more females in upper woodwinds and more males in lower brass and percussion, but there's a balance that pretty much looks like the world itself. When you get to small combo jazz, the diversity seems to shrink. Again, I'm talking about musicians, not singers. I've spent a fair amount of time since COVID online watching livestreams from places like Mezzrow, Beckett And Bird, Smalls, and two others I cannot recall atm. The men outnumber the women probably 8 to 1 for everything but vocals. I mean, there are adult playing situations that involve women to the same degree as men, but jazz doesn't seem to be one of them. Now, there was a time when women didn't earn the same pay for the same musical work, but again, jazz clubs are probably not still participating in disparate treatment.

I guess I just kind of find it weird. Is it a situation where women study, play and then put their lives to the sword for a child and spouse? Or is it one where they decide early on not to do small combo work? Or is it split down the center and I'm just not seeing in on my screen?

Good question. I am a semi-pro working musician. I know lots of women singers (my function band is fronted by a lady singer), and a few women singer/guitarists who do solo/duo/band work (I work with two!). I know quite a few women instrumentalist teachers (orchestral instruments including piano)
I don't personally know any women instrumentalists that perform in covers or function bands or theatre bands. Out of literally thousands of players.

Orchestral players, yes plenty.
I have met one lady upright bass player jazzer at a wedding I was performing at - she was outstanding, lives in London. I have done sound for a drum clinic with Daisy Palmer (drums for Paloma Faith and others - she started in orchestral drums), also based in London.
And that's about it. In the last 30years of continuous gigging. Now you mention it, it IS very weird.

 

[oren]

There have always been accomplished female players who generally didn't get as much recognition as their male peers (Lil Hardin, Melba Liston, Mary Lou Williams, Marian McPartland, Emily Remler). When I lived in Chicago I studied bass with the wonderful Marlene Rosenberg, who played in Joe Henderson's group in the 80s and is stilI one of the first call jazz bassists in town. We are seeing more women becoming accomplished and successful jazz instrumentalists all the time these days. Take a look around and you'll see examples: Mary Halvorson, Terri Lyne Carrington, Renee Rosnes, Melissa Aldana, Ingrid Jensen, Alexa Tarrentino, Linda Mae Han Oh, Nubya Garcia, Lakecia Benjamin, Endea Owens, Patricia Brennan, Allison Miller, Jenny Scheinman, Nicole Mitchell, Tomeka Reid are all names that spring readily to mind of fantastic current players who are well worth checking out.

 

[yodedude2]

one of the greatest performances i've ever witnessed occurred about thirteen years ago: acs, a trio comprised of geri allen, terri-lyne carrington, and esperanza spalding. a truly ethereal performance ~

 

[Solipsistik]

Carol Kaye is a jazz player (bass & guitar) and that was her calling when not doing studio work.

I hear she can play a little.

 

[Guitalia]

Mine may not be a popular opinion, or a socially-acceptable one, but ... Improvisation requires taking risks, risks of "failure," and the working conditions of performing jazz may present other forms of risk. Playing from sheet music in a safe environment is much less risky.
In many (if not most) cultures, young males are more likely to take risks of all kinds and, in many cases, encouraged to do so. I observe that we, culturally, place more emphasis on safety when it comes to females.
This tendency may be fading with the increasing popularity of women's athletics, but it's a hard thing to quantify or draw correlations to music.

See the post above yours.

And you neglect to note the obvious fact that classical music, where improvisation is obviously abjured, has been dominated by male composers and performers for centuries. Does classical music select for not just females but also males who are averse to risk-taking?

Your insight regarding females' "fear of failure" is transparently that of a male member of the dominant class in the U.S., by the way. For another perspective, I recommend Louis Armstrong's autobiography "Satchmo." Women in the dirt-poor quarters in New Orleans were tough, and often as dangerous as the men. It wasn't fear, of failure or anything else, that kept all but a few of them from playing jazz.

When jazz was coming into being at the turn from the 19th century to the 20th, poor Blacks in cities in the South had only a few ways to earn a living open to them.

Most men were manual laborers. Some became entertainers. Most women worked as servants, seamstresses, etc., while also raising families. Some were prostitutes.

For most of those women, there was not a lot of leisure time for learning to play an instrument, much less performing, in other words.

And, of course, you're fully aware that most men like to hang out with men, and most women with women. Jazz clubs weren't called clubs for nothing.

 

[Kentos]

IMO, Women are more realistic than men. You put countless hours practicing to be a great musician, but you make 85 bucks each gig, which is good for me. However. When you face the reality, you will need more money to make a living.

 

[Low Main]

Pianist Joanne Brackeen was absent from public view while she was raising four children.

Her husband, saxophonist Charles Brackeen was the noted musician in the household at the time.

When her kids came of age, she made a grand entrance with a series of blazing ensembles that featured virtuoso bassists like Clint Houston.

She's been teaching at Berklee for years. I don't see her name mentioned as often regarding gigs and recordings.

But her recorded legacy remains stunning. Like Jaco, by the time she hit the scene, she was more than ready.

 

[Carl Hillman]

IMO, Women are more realistic than men. You put countless hours practicing to be a great musician, but you make 85 bucks each gig, which is good for me. However. When you face the reality, you will need more money to make a living.

I was going to say smarter than men, but realistic is less inflammatory.

Yes, perhaps they are less likely to aspire to a career arc in which you slowly go broke until you die in squalor. (just kidding!...sort of)

I'm sure sexism in hiring also plays a big role.

 

[oren]

one of the greatest performances i've ever witnessed occurred about thirteen years ago: acs, a trio comprised of geri allen, terri-lyne carrington, and esperanza spalding. a truly ethereal performance ~

Wow! I would have loved to have seen that!

 

[yodedude2]

Wow! I would have loved to have seen that!

they were ON that night, each of them and all together. one of those magical concerts that gives one chills ~

 

[JamesGrant]

I was going to say smarter than men, but realistic is less inflammatory.

Yes, perhaps they are less likely to aspire to a career arc in which you slowly go broke until you die in squalor. (just kidding!...sort of)

I'm sure sexism in hiring also plays a big role.

Don't know what you mean… Some of the gigs I play pay less than a standalone equipment hire would charge, for the equipment I bring and take away, and transport, and use to perform with…

 

[AGCurry]

See the post above yours.

And you neglect to note the obvious fact that classical music, where improvisation is obviously abjured, has been dominated by male composers and performers for centuries. Does classical music select for not just females but also males who are averse to risk-taking?

Your insight regarding females' "fear of failure" is transparently that of a male member of the dominant class in the U.S., by the way. For another perspective, I recommend Louis Armstrong's autobiography "Satchmo." Women in the dirt-poor quarters in New Orleans were tough, and often as dangerous as the men. It wasn't fear, of failure or anything else, that kept all but a few of them from playing jazz.

When jazz was coming into being at the turn from the 19th century to the 20th, poor Blacks in cities in the South had only a few ways to earn a living open to them.

Most men were manual laborers. Some became entertainers. Most women worked as servants, seamstresses, etc., while also raising families. Some were prostitutes.

For most of those women, there was not a lot of leisure time for learning to play an instrument, much less performing, in other words.

And, of course, you're fully aware that most men like to hang out with men, and most women with women. Jazz clubs weren't called clubs for nothing.

There is nothing I disagree with in the post above my previous one, and I agree that classical music HAS been dominated by men. However, in any contemporary orchestra, men and women will have pretty even numbers. That is still not so in the jazz world.

I also agree that women and men can be equally tough and dangerous, and that women can be tethered to life's realities in ways that men typically aren't.

What I posited, and meant to communicate, is that "nurture" quite possibly contributes to the relatively-low number of women in jazz. I'm not sure that makes my post "transparently that of a male member of the dominant class in the U.S." It's more that I have asked myself the OP's question and observed how things are in life.

BTW and FWIW, I consider our female alto-sax player to be the best soloist in my jazz band.

 

[Don Kasper]

you die in squalor.

 

[Sam Sherry]

IMO the most positive development in jazz music in this century has been the dramatic increase in involvement by female musicians at the most elite level.
There's still a long, long way to go of course.

When you double the talent-pool the music takes off.
When you add a new bunch of people onstage a new bunch of people is empowered to come listen.
And both of those things help drown out the dopes proclaiming that "jazz is dead."

All Hail!!

 

[bass player 53]

There have always been accomplished female players who generally didn't get as much recognition as their male peers (Lil Hardin, Melba Liston, Mary Lou Williams, Marian McPartland, Emily Remler). When I lived in Chicago I studied bass with the wonderful Marlene Rosenberg, who played in Joe Henderson's group in the 80s and is stilI one of the first call jazz bassists in town. We are seeing more women becoming accomplished and successful jazz instrumentalists all the time these days. Take a look around and you'll see examples: Mary Halvorson, Terri Lyne Carrington, Renee Rosnes, Melissa Aldana, Ingrid Jensen, Alexa Tarrentino, Linda Mae Han Oh, Nubya Garcia, Lakecia Benjamin, Endea Owens, Patricia Brennan, Allison Miller, Jenny Scheinman, Nicole Mitchell, Tomeka Reid are all names that spring readily to mind of fantastic current players who are well worth checking out.

My dad was a jazz bassist (I'm 68), and in his peer group, one of the highest 'compliment' remarks made about good women musicians was "she plays like a man"… I think that speaks volumes about what women were up against. I sincerely hope that's changed.

 

[sean_on_bass]

more women is jazz than ever potentially, especially in the younger demographic. The fact that one of McBride's current groups has not one, but two women, is a pretty big sign of change happening.