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Would a JBL E-140 work well in an Avatar B115H?

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by The 0x, Mar 27, 2006.


  1. The 0x

    The 0x

    Aug 24, 2003
    Timonium, MD
    I've decided i'm going to save up for new cabs over the summer. I'm going to get a pair Avatar 1x15s, but i'd like to load them with 8-ohm JBL E-140s (I'm going with them because they're very efficient, and i'm only using a 60-watt tube head). Can somebody run the numbers through WinISD, and tell me if they'll work alright in that cab? Or will I have to build my own cabs for them? :help:

    Also, if I ordered them without the tweeter, and left the hole open, would that make the tuning of the cab better or worse for the speaker?
     
  2. BillyB_from_LZ

    BillyB_from_LZ Supporting Member

    Sep 7, 2000
    Chicago
    Not the way I read BGavin's spreadsheet...the Avatar box is way too big.

    I'd either wait for Bruce's response or PM him...
     
  3. greenboy

    greenboy

    Dec 18, 2000
    remote mountain cabin Montana
    greenboy designs: fEARful, bassic, dually, crazy88 etc
    I really suggest learning to procure and run the T-S specs through WInISD. It's really pretty simple and could be of value later on too.
     
  4. BillyB_from_LZ

    BillyB_from_LZ Supporting Member

    Sep 7, 2000
    Chicago
    Making some assumptions (like the true volume of the box and the tuning frequency), I came up with this plot...

    I assumed about 4.3 cu. ft (the grille looks to be about square, the box is made from 3/4 in. plywood and the baffle is set back about 1 in.) and a tuning freq of 40 Hz. WinISD had the Thiele-Small parameters for the E-140 in its library, so it's really just a matter of a few clicks to plot a theoretical response curve.
     
  5. The 0x

    The 0x

    Aug 24, 2003
    Timonium, MD
    Interesting.... everywhere else i've gone, they've said the cab would be way too small for the E-140. :confused:

    Are you
     
  6. The B115 cab is about 3.7 cu ft loaded with a speaker and is tuned to 50 hz. I don't have the JBL E-140 in my databass. Maybe someone can run the numbers for you with these cab specs.
     
  7. Blues Cat

    Blues Cat Payson Fanned Bass Strings Owner Commercial User

    May 28, 2005
    Katy, Tx
    Payson Fanned Bass Strings Owner
    The JBL E-140s need 4.86 cu ft to realise full bass potential.
    So the Avatar is about 73% of the recommended cu ft.
    They like a large box.
     
  8. BillyB_from_LZ

    BillyB_from_LZ Supporting Member

    Sep 7, 2000
    Chicago
    Here you go...

    FWIW, WinISD says that the T-S parameters for an E-140 are Fs= 32 Hz, Vas= 10.5 cu. ft., Qts = 0.17
     
  9. BillyB_from_LZ

    BillyB_from_LZ Supporting Member

    Sep 7, 2000
    Chicago
    People say a lot of things, but you have to understand what their point of reference is. A speaker will work in any enclosure...will it sound good? Maybe Will it self destruct? Maybe Is another enclosure "better"? Depends on what better is... It's all about trade-offs and living within your constraints.

    I don't know if an optimally sized enclosure (as defined by Thiele and Small I guess) sounds better than one that's smaller (and more portable) or larger...nor do the designers...that's why they invest the $$$ (or other local currency) to build prototypes and let the ears decide.

    IIRC, many of these programs design boxes for a nice smooth 4th order Butterworth alignment. There are other filter alignments, but the response curve isn't as pretty...
     
  10. The 0x

    The 0x

    Aug 24, 2003
    Timonium, MD
    So the response curve isn't always 100% accurate in real life, and there can be fudge factors as well in real life?
     
  11. BillyB_from_LZ

    BillyB_from_LZ Supporting Member

    Sep 7, 2000
    Chicago
    If you run the numbers for an E-140 in WinISD without forcing the box volume or tuning, the "optimum" box is supposedly 0.61 cu. ft. and tuned to 77.5 Hz.

    Nice pretty curve though... -3dB at about 114Hz
     
  12. 4Mal

    4Mal Supporting Member

    Jun 2, 2002
    Columbia River Gorge
    A 60 watt tube amp isn't going to be enough to get any real volume out of any speaker... I just sold my Fender Bassman for this reason. They will record well but it's pretty much bedroom volume.

    As a recording amp, all you need is one speaker. JBL recommends 4 cubic feet, with two 4 inch round ports, 6.5 inches in length for the E140. I've used that size with D/E/K 140's as well as the 2225 and 2205. It's a decent sounding box.
     
  13. BillyB_from_LZ

    BillyB_from_LZ Supporting Member

    Sep 7, 2000
    Chicago
    I don't know for sure... My point is that what's pleasing to the eye (nice flat deep response curve) might not be pleasing to the ear, or the back (from lugging around a huge box) or the wallet when you have to buy a vehicle large enough to haul it all around, etc.

    I've read some of BGavin's posts where he talks about his cabinets, which have "optimal" designs AFAIK and they're H-U-G-E and heavy... That's what Bruce is committed to and that's cool (and bless him for putting the spreadsheet together), but it's not what's best for everyone.

    A local bass bud (and fellow TBer) plays his two 7 strings through a little bitty Sonic compact 1x15...gets great tone, plays in five or six different bands who are all happy, rattles rooms of all sizes, loads it all in his original issue RAV4 (which is none too big). He's been using it for 10+ years with excellent results.
     
  14. BillyB_from_LZ

    BillyB_from_LZ Supporting Member

    Sep 7, 2000
    Chicago
    That's what it's all about!!!
     
  15. 4Mal

    4Mal Supporting Member

    Jun 2, 2002
    Columbia River Gorge
    Funny about the Sonic 1x15. Years ago I bought one while visiting Chicago. Still have it. I had a D140 in it that I wanted for a different project so I yanked it out and dropped in a Summ Magna (probably Eminnence) 15 that had been laying around. That little cab sounds great even with the Sunn speaker in it. Weird. Every driver I've had in that little cab just sounds great. The design guy at Sonic hit one out of the park that day...

    The D140 is now matched up with a 2205 in an old Sunn Beta 2x15 cab. That thing honks!. Doesn't go real deep. I'd say it falls off at 50 but my god is it loud...not reaslly nmy tone these days but if I were about to start a Journey tribute band (I'd castrate the singer and then shoot myself ...) but the cab's basic tone would drop right in...
     
  16. The E140 is a very efficient driver that performs well in very small boxes, i.e. QB3 (0.94 cubic feet at 73 Hz). It has relatively little bottom.

    JBL recommends the extended bass shelf (EBS) alignment for this driver. They say 4.0 cubic feet at 40 Hz. This brings up the bottom quite a bit, at the expense of increased sloppiness in the low end. This is typical of all EBS designs, not just the JBL.

    My spread sheet shows three popular alignments. Big is dependent on the driver, not something I pull out of a hat. Heavy is dependent on the construction technique and materials used. I have a design for the E140 in QB3 using 1/2" baltic birch, and it comes in around 36 pounds without grille, casters, or finish. If you used cheaper/lighter plywood, you can reduce the weight a bit more.
     
  17. The 0x

    The 0x

    Aug 24, 2003
    Timonium, MD

    I respectfully disagree. :) I just played a gig with my 60 watt Sceptre & Weber-loaded 2x15, and it handled the gig beautifully. Granted, I could've used a bit more bottom end, but other wise it was fine.
     
  18. todd 4ta

    todd 4ta

    Apr 3, 2003
    Indiana
    I was in the process of having a 'vintage 2x15' cab built for me, but then I ended up finding the real thing - a '66 Fender Dual Showman loaded with a pair of JBL D140's.

    Two other drivers to look at (similar to the JBL):

    (1) a Weber California Ceramic 15 (with bass cones) or
    (2) the new Eminence vintage driver (available with aluminum dust cap).

    I'm not sure of the exact model name for the Eminence, but it's brand new and should be shipping soon if not already. The Weber is available as an 8 ohm, but for some reason I think the Eminence is only available as a 4 ohm at this time (kind of strange for a 15").

    I was planning to go with a pair of the Weber Cali Ceramic 15's with aluminum caps and special bass cones in a custom built cab.

    I may still build a 1x15 vintage cab based on the new Eminence vintage driver.

    edit -- Ox, I just noticed you said you have a 2x15 with a Weber in it. Do you know which model Weber?
     
  19. BillyB_from_LZ

    BillyB_from_LZ Supporting Member

    Sep 7, 2000
    Chicago
    This is where you might find that 60 watts isn't enough... Low frequencies gobble up most of your power. If your cabinet rolls off the low end (i.e. its impedance rises at lower frequencies and prevents the amp from using up its reserves down low) it could be working in your favor with respect to volume by not turning your tone to mush while you're pushing mid-bass, mids and highs...

    Todd, to answer your question, The Ox' profile shows that his 2x15 is loaded with two different Weber speakers, a Ceramic Chicago and a Thames.
     
  20. LoveThatBass

    LoveThatBass

    Jun 28, 2004
    The JBL E140 will work well in the Avatar cab providing you put a shelf (folded horn) in the bottom. This reduces the vent and overall interior space. It is quite easy to install. I did it in about one hour. Just leave about 3" space between the back of the angled shelf and the back of the cab for a vent. The result was a fantastically sounding cab. I used 1x2's for a brace on each side to hold the shelf. The shelf needs to be . 5/8" or better yet 3/4" thick board. I covered it with a piece of carpet like material like what is in there now. I used only screws to hold it so it could be removed in the future if I changed speakers.

    http://www.fenderforum.com/userphotos/index.html?recid=27672
     

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