would this be loud enough?

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by the overlooked, Jun 9, 2003.

  1. the overlooked

    the overlooked Guest

    Jun 8, 2003
    would 350 watts through a 4x10 compete with a 100 watt all tube guitar head through a 4x12 cab? like a 350 watt ampeg head through an ampeg 4x10 against a mesa boogie dual rectifier half stack?
  2. Wes Whitmore

    Wes Whitmore Supporting Member

    Mar 10, 2003
    Columbus, OH
    No. I answer this assuming that the guitar player is actually using the majority of their power. 4x12s is considerably more cone area and the 4x10 bass cab, and high frequencies are directional and cut though much better than low notes. Plus, that is a pretty big guitar head. Someone on here said to go toe-to-toe with a guitarist, you need some 8 to 10x the power, and the speakers to handle that power. that is like house PA amounts of power. I suggest you not worry about being louder than the guitarist. You'll loose most of the time.

    Do other little things like using ear plugs to mask out the wall of noise he is dishing out, or stand closer to your stack, or boost the mids of the 4x10 to get some extra cut through. Or you can do what I did and go in ear monitors. That way, you don't have to worry about volume of his setup. We end up going DI and use just a little volume for a cab mic. It takes out some of the fun, but it cleans up the stage volume considerably.

  3. the overlooked

    the overlooked Guest

    Jun 8, 2003
    what abour running it through a pa live? would it work then?
  4. FretNoMore

    FretNoMore * Cooking with GAS *

    Jan 25, 2002
    The frozen north
    Try to get the band to balance the levels, it's more musical that way. ;)

    If 4x10 and 350W isn't enough on stage at a small to medium venue, then the guitarists are simply too loud, IMO.

    The PA will help a lot, then you can bring down the backline volume to a decent level.
  5. rickbass

    rickbass Supporting Member

    Not if the PA is something like this -


    Your guitarist needs to realize he is playing in a BAND!!!

    That means not using all the power/volume available to them, necessarily. Their first concern should be to achieve a good-sounding, balanced sound level with the band, NOT to see how many eardrums they can damage.

    If all the audience can hear is the blasted guitar, eventually there won't be much of an audience.

    Until you can get more amp-muscle, my suggestion is to mic your amp so both the PA and your amp are working for you.
  6. the overlooked

    the overlooked Guest

    Jun 8, 2003
    we have a full carvin PA. and his amp doesnt sound good until its at around 6 or 7.. when the tubes start to saturate
  7. Wes Whitmore

    Wes Whitmore Supporting Member

    Mar 10, 2003
    Columbus, OH
    Not knowing much about a tube head, I would think he could crank up his tube preamp volume to saturation, and leave the power amp master at whatever level he needs it to be. As far as I know, the only tubes that get saturated in a tube amp is the preamp, right?

    Anyhow, I wouldn't think of any gig that you would want the audience to hear the stage volume over the real PA. That is one of the causes of such a overbearing PA. A band keeps turning up their amps to compete, and the PA turns it up to blow the stage volume away, which in turns drives the audience away or deaf, whatever comes first...
    At least that was what happened last weekend here in Columbus at the show I watched.
  8. FretNoMore

    FretNoMore * Cooking with GAS *

    Jan 25, 2002
    The frozen north
    Guitar tube amps work differently from bass amps, you may want both preamp and poweramp overdrive. Some guitarists actually get smaller amps (like 15 or 30 Watts) so they can overdrive it properly at low(ish) sound levels. Then use a microphone to the PA for more volume. 100W guitar amps are silly, you can't get your overdriven sound without going over the pain threshold. One other solution is that on some amps you can remove half of the power amp tubes, halving the output effect, and that way you can overdrive the tubes at a lower level too.

    EDIT: Silly is perhaps too strong, if you want a good clean guitar sound it doesn't hurt to have 100W.
  9. Dman


    Jan 25, 2002
    i use an ampeg b2r and 4x10 cab in my band and it sounds awsome. I also play guitar. i have a 100 watt marshall head. I wound use something called a power soak that gets connected between the amp head and the cab. It would allow you to cranck up the head and have power tube overdrive and still be at a decent volume..

    Marshall also makes one too called a power break.... you may be able to find one on ebay
  10. Petebass


    Dec 22, 2002
    QLD Australia
    every time a guitarist piles this Bullsheet on me, I feel like punching him in the ego.... I don't care if you need to run it at 7 to sound good because my instrument sounds worse and worse at those levels. Last time I looked, people who enjoyed bands prefer a a good overall sound over a loud, crappy mix with a "perfect" guitar tone.
  11. BruceWane


    Oct 31, 2002
    Houston, TX
    It would be best for your guitarist to get a powersoak as mentioned above, but for a cheap fix.........
    Try getting a piece of plywood that's about 15" x 32" and leaning it against the face of his 4x12 so that it blocks his bottom two speakers. I used to play with a guy who did this and it worked pretty well - he used a piece of plexiglass at gigs so that it wasn't so obvious.
  12. Munjibunga

    Munjibunga Total Hyper-Elite Member Gold Supporting Member

    May 6, 2000
    San Diego (when not at Groom Lake)
    Independent Contractor to Bass San Diego
  13. ndjx


    Oct 26, 2001
    Ok I'm not sure why you guys say 350 watts isnt enough. I play an Ampeg B2R through a Ampeg 6x10 and I am heard. Yeah I do run the thing pretty high but I am still heard. I do this without PA support and I'm playing with two guitarists both running Peavey 5150s. I boost the mids a bit but not much, I'm not sure why everyone is having such a problem.
  14. Petebass


    Dec 22, 2002
    QLD Australia
    it's not the 350w that bothers me. It's the 4x10 on it's own. Put a 2x10 or 15 (sorry munji) with it and it would have a chance.

    There's a big difference between a 4x10 and a 6x10..........
  15. A lot of PA issues have come from this thread. I hate bass through the PA. I hate hearing all the music coming from the same sound source. I like to hear the guitar coming from the guitar amp, the bass from the bass amp, the keyboards from the keyboard amp. Most of the time you can get away with only micing the kick drum. The bigger the room, however, the more one has to rely on the PA. The last thing I want through the PA is the bass. To my ears, it always get screwed in the mix. With that said, you are starting out at a dis-advantage with a 4x10 and 350 watts against a 100 1/2 stack. I think you'll need 8x10's and 1000 watts to keep up.
  16. lamarjones

    lamarjones Supporting Member

    Aug 27, 2002
    Raleigh, NC
    but you need to know this, gk's 350 w in the 700rb will easily face a 100w guitar head, ampeg's 350w in the svt3 pro would be useless.

    The 700rb is a tough cookie!
  17. alexclaber

    alexclaber Commercial User

    Jun 19, 2001
    Brighton, UK
    Director - Barefaced Ltd
    Hear, hear! Assuming it doesn't screw up the onstage balance I prefer to crank my rig and not go through the PA. If the PA is really good and the venue is big I'll go through the PA and turn down, but in most small-medium venues I've yet to come across a PA that has the speed, depth and tightness in the lows as my rig does.

  18. Bob Lee (QSC)

    Bob Lee (QSC) In case you missed it, I work for QSC Audio! Gold Supporting Member Commercial User

    Jul 3, 2001
    Costa Mesa, Calif.
    Technical Communications Developer, QSC Audio
    My opinion on bass in the PA: if you can do it and it sounds good, go for it.

    The problem is, though, that most band and small club PAs are barely adequate for vocals and maybe some acoustic instruments, let alone bass. You'll need serious power and loudspeakers to effectively and cleanly add instruments to the mix, especially bass.
  19. Petebass


    Dec 22, 2002
    QLD Australia
    Here Here!! I'm having trouble getting people to believe me on this one Bob. People don't seem to realise how much of their stage sound makes it into the overall mix...
  20. No. I ran a '79 SVT stack against a (loud!)guitarist armed with a 100 watt Marshall stack and could keep up...barely. I don't think a 4x10 is gonna quite cut it.