yet another Shuttle/LMII comparison

I happened to be at GC and they had an LMII for $475. So being curious (not unhappy with the Shuttle)--but yet hearing several folks claim that the LMII is louder than the Shuttle; I decided to pick up an LMII for a loudness comparison. I had an LMII awhile back before the Shuttle and remember that I didn't like the amount of headroom I felt I got running at 8-ohm through a single cab.

I recorded my bass playing into a wav file so I could have a consistent signal into both amps (eliminating at least one variable). I EQ'ed the signal on both amps to as close as possible the same (but I know that's a tall order with just my ears so I won't claim the EQ was exact). I ran both through my 2 12" cabs and used a decibal meter from about 3-4 feet away. I made sure both preamps were running entirely clean (by my ears). Then I brought up the volume levels to the point where I could just start to hear distortion of equal amounts on both amps (audible to my ears). I should note however that the distortion on the Shuttle at that point sounds like tube grind whereas the LMII sounds like SS distortion.

The numbers (C-weighting) were Shuttle 117.5db, and LMII 116db. I also have to say I could get the Shuttle a little louder still if I wanted more grind (which wasn't objectionable) but I could not do that with the LMII---overdriving it further made me worry for my speakers.

as an aside--I also ran the NEO-Pak and got a number of 114.5. However, if I wanted to run a little more grind--I could also get it up to the level very close to the LMII (and still without any distortion that sounded worse than a tube-amp type of grinding distortion.

Sometimes on a gig, I like to really dig-in---I really don't feel the LMII would give me a decent safety margin while the Shuttle would not make me worry as much. I feel I could keep the Shuttle at a higher level and at worst when I dig in I'd get some grind. I feel the LMII would make me want to back off more. Realize that you could add a limiter or compressor to the LMII and possibly improve the situation.

Personally I don't see how anyone can make the claim that the LMII is louder than the Shuttle. And that's whether or not distortion is taken into account. Perhaps into different speakers that are a better match for the LMII? I don't know. What I do know is I convinced myself after having some doubt and being totally prepared to make a switch. However, I'll keep the Shuttle for the reasons given. (the extra features and better warranty/repair options on the Genz stuff is a big extra for me as well)

Next was my decision on keeping the NEO-Pak over the LMII as a backup. While the LMII is slightly louder than the NEO-pak---I still think it's the fact I can run the Neo-pak dirtier and make up the difference. And when I really dig-in--it seems like I still feel more comfortable (less worried) doing it with the NEO-pak--even given the lesser power. I'd probably be more inclined to use both cabs though. My goal isn't to start a big argument here---ymmv---different speakers, eq points, playing styles can all come into play.

PS--one other difference too was that it seems that the volume knob on the LMII gets to a certain point and doesn't get louder--seems to somehow increase alot on the first half and not as much on the back half of it's travel. Could imagine that having the volume come on so quickly in the lower part of it's travel could contribute to a perception that it's louder than it really is.

 

could be but at the levels I measured---both heads had a little distortion on the peaks and were clean overall--and yet the Shuttle measured higher. note--both pre's were clean

"everybody else" ?? that might be going a bit far

 

well--I have all three right now

but one of 'em has to go---still might keep the LMII over the NEO


incidently---I went to GC and told them I'd been hearing of deep discounts on some Markbass gear. They offered me the LMII at that price $475 (and that 12" combo with the LMII head for $750)

 

could be they were ignoring the bit of hard distortion this amp can give you on peaks.

I wish I could have totally bypassed the EQ on both amps to eliminate any EQ differences ---I think they were very similar but it's always possible that a spike in a single range of frequency could cause the clipping. After my static test I did play around with the EQ to try to get the LMII to show higher dbs but couldn't.

 

I don't know Kjung

I used C-weighting which should recognize low-end---and I EQ'd them similarly.

Agree, it's not scientific but if I EQ two amps to where I like to hear them and they sound similar, and then the db meter shows the Shuttle is louder, and I also hear it louder to my ears. Which one is louder? After the initial go I also messed with the LMII eq (increasing the low) and still did not get db numbers any higher.

I would like to do the test again and this time EQ them both toward the low side. I always thought two power amps--with the same equalization would be a fair test of relative power delivery--regardless of where your bias (high or low) was at--as long as they (both amps) were both the same EQ.

But I gots to tell you--that the lowend that the LMII clearly has that the Shuttle seems to not have so much is below 40 which I personally never want in a bar/gig situation. We have our subs rolled off at 50 so why would we want a stage monitor to be capable of significant below 40 performance?

It's possible that C-weighting still does not take into account all frequencies that would advantage the LM-II. Now keep in mind--this test was through two 12" speakers which inherently are going to rolloff volume below 40. So it could be that yes--the LMII is capable of being louder if run through speakers that are much more capable if below 40 performance. However, for my needs--if I prefer a more middy sound (and that's bass mids--not guitar mids).

I think I'll repeat the test with a sub I have--post later

 

I agree on the switch. Personally I think the low EQ of the Shuttle could be lower (I think it's 80). The LMII low control does do a good job of acting as a rolloff and can get you to where you want to be. I've found if I don't rolloff the low on the LM-II--I see the speakers move way more than I'd want to see.

On the Shuttle I wish I could engage the switch and still have a control centered at 40 to fine tune it. ie get rid of the below 40 stuff a little.

HPF maybe?

 

the LMII was all flat except rolloff to about 9:30am position on the low knob

Shuttle was same except total rolloff of high knob and about 11am position on the low knob.


I played around with LMII by increasing low-end to 12 and low-mid bumped up a little--both and vice-versa.

once again--speakers may come into play


PS--nope--ran both through a 4-ohm sub and the Shuttle is still louder---so no--I really don't get the hit on the shuttle.