genz benz 6.0 ?

I can understand tendency to downsize stuff. I follow technical attempts to "move air by small surface". I did try 10" and 12" cabinets. They can do midrange miracles. But, when it comes to lay down low frequencies, I still did not find any of then do it right. I did record ONCE, couple of years back with exactly such amp in some crappy studio some demo. Thing had a 15 and 4x10 or 4x12 (don't remember exactly). But, that was in recording room. Playing outside without good PA is different story completely. Your low frequencies die 10 ft in front of the cabinet. You got to have something to throw it away. That Fender cab cannot do it.

As you can assume, I am not recording anything and I don't care how it would sound in the mix. In the live action, all it matters is the punch in the guts. That does not happen with mids, that does not happen with hi-fi cabs or amplifiers. It does happen with raw power and speakers that can go deep and project far. That's exactly reason why his guitar player could not hear (or feel bass). There are different situations for different settings. In this case, problem was inefficient cabinet that does not project low frequencies, God knows what kind of settings with mid-filters and probably few other things. He was asking what's wrong.

I build myself 2x12 cab (supposedly 500W) with Eminence speakers. Just to see what they can do. I gave it to my ex keyboard player. I cannot use it for the bass. It plays nice. But, does not have punch I need. It has nice freq range from very deep to very high. I don't have professional SPL-meter and no real room to test it. But, I did it with sound generator and dB-meter just for my observation. Very nice linear curve from about 40-8000 Hz. But, no punch. It might be incredible cab for someone who is recording things or it can be used with PA. I haven't had purpose for it. So, I just gave it away.

 

So what you are saying is that the ONLY rig that will get loud and clean is an Acoustic? Quit typing before you hurt yourself.


To the OP, you will need more speaker surface area to carry a barn. Physics being what it is, a guitar player with a good quality 30W combo can take your head off in a barn. You, on the other hand, have to move more air. It's not a matter of watts (par say). It's a matter of how much speaker surface area you have. There are some (very expensive) 4-10 cabs that could probably pull it off, but if you are on a budget, that's not an option. A better option for you (if you are going to continue to play such big buildings with your rig carrying all the bass) would be a couple of 4-10 cabs used and matching.

 

Tvrtko,

I don't have the longevity or experience you do. I respect that you're relating your experiences and opinions honestly and that, with the speakers and cabs you tried, you got results that worked better for you with 15s than with smaller speakers. I also agree that people sometimes expect unreasonable things from small rigs (I know I do) and I recognize that a 15" speaker has more than double the radiating area of a 10", which has to count for something. I don't pretend to know what the best rig for your situation or the OPs will be, but I have heard 15s and 18s that let me down and I've heard a few 410s that impressed me with how hard they hit. The aforementioned 410 with the Geddy and the Shuttle 6.0 (I want to say it was a Mesa, but I'm not sure), a non-descript Peavey 410 running off a Peavey Firebass 700 head (which I'd never heard of 'til two weeks ago), and an Ampeg 410 HLF running off a Genz GBE 750 (this last was the hardest). There were things I disliked about each of those setups, too, and I don't see a 410 in my future, but they all produced hits that ranged from a light jab to the chest to a hard punch to the gut. Of course, I've heard 410s that I thought laughable as well.

As for heads, speaking as an owner of several micro-heads (and a couple of non-micro heads), I won't say categorically that lead-sleds hit harder. My little GK MB200 hits harder than some over-rated, under-powered lead sleds out there. But I will say that, in my admittedly limited experience, the hardest-hitting heads I've heard/felt have been lead-sleds. At any rate, some of the nice old iron is available cheap, if you're willing to haul it around. I did try out an Acoustic combo two years back (since you seem fond of the brand -- I think it was a 210, though) and was pretty impressed with the bang-for-the-buck. I'd be curious to see what their bigger gear could do.

First things first, the OP should learn to make use of the rig he's got. I can't help but think he'll see some improvement. If it's not enough, he can look into adding to or replacing his current cab (I've got no opinion on the Rumble 410 but, like I said, am not crazy about the combos). Depending on his budget and schlep-limit, someone else will be able to suggest a couple of good cabs for the purpose, in whatever format. If that's not enough, he can look into a mightier head.

As far as 15"-based cabs, they're not the flavor-of-the-month anymore (and, caveat: I've never owned one) but a lot of working players used to be pretty high on the Bag End stuff. If you can find a couple of them used, OP, I imagine they'd make a pretty decent rig with your Shuttle 6. There are some nice deals on used Genz cabs, too -- I've always wanted to try a Neox 212.

More knowledgeable players can feel free to correct or elaborate on what I've posted here.

 

Wow, sure was a long discussion about speaker size without a mention of cabinet design. A small sealed 4x10 would have much different response than a big ported 4x10.

I play a Shuttle 6.0 with the 2x10, and have another shuttle 2x10 cab if I need to move more air. There are certain rooms / stages that it disapears in, but for the most part it's more than enough. I have played the Shuttle on the same stage as a buddy's Markbass 1x15 combo. Both do the job, but I like that I can hear what I'm playing better with the 2x10 that his amp, he's played both and likes the rumble he gets from his more than mine. To each his own, but once they turn on the PA subs, it's kinda moot.

-z.

 

Everyone should have at least 2 different cabs (or sets of cabs) for different situations (if you use one amp and specially new ones with SMPS power unit)

1 - for recording/small gigs internally - use whatever you like
2 - for playing in open air - minimum 1x15 (I use 2x15) and if you need more mids you can ad some puppies. (in the case there is no PA)

I use small combo (100W or 200W) for small gigs and 2x15 for playing out. I did try to use 1x18 and 2x15 once. But, I was unhappy with 18. I could not hear damn thing. Yes my pants were shaking like it was windy. But, that was brutally low. I don't know what was like in audience. Everyone I talked to said it was brutal roar from the bass.

Playing in open air would probably require older power supply, because dynamics of old amps is much better with rectifiers and transformers.

Couple of years back I was at Deep Purple concert, right in front of Roger Glover, who uses (I think) SWR 6x12. There were 3 or 4 sets on the stage. I could not hear his bass. PA was behind, I could feel it. But his stage cabs were dead silent. Were they there just as decoration and whole thing goes through PA? That was strange feeling with a lot of questions unanswered...

So, to finish - playing out (or in the huge space) without PA is real challenge for bass players.

 

I use a shuttle max 6 with a sealed ampeg 4x10 and it's really really quiet. Sometimes I have to hum along to myself to fill in the gaps.

 

At this point, I'm curious to see if the OP has been able to realize any progress with his current setup, though I realize it might take band practice/another gig to really tell.

Re-reading the original post, I'm also struck by the phrase "clean sound with no grind." I am a clean player. I almost never, ever, employ distortion and I am not a fan of fuzzed-out, indistinct, squishy bass tones. However, within the last year or so, I've realized that a little bit of hair on the sound, in many cases, doesn't come across that way in a mix or out in the audience. It can actually sound more clear and more defined, even when slapping or playing chords and harmonics. For me, though, it's a fine line. Just a little bit = more definition, a little bit more = blurred around the edges. I wouldn't use it all the time, but it's nice more often than I'd have thought.