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General rule on 2x12 sealed cab/GO Ported cajun man design

Hi fnordlyone,

You from down on de bayou? I used to live in New Orleans...

For best results the enclosure should be matched to the specific speakers. Some speakers have weak bass in a sealed box, some have boomy bass in a ported box, and some don't have enough excursion for decent volume before fartout no matter what kind of box you put them in.

Can you tell us more about the speakers you have in mind, like what they were intended for, make & model, or better yet a link to a spec sheet?

Assuming these particular speakers are well suited for a sealed box, the Thiele-Small parameters are still helpful in coming up with a good box size. Too small, and you won't have enough low end. Too big, and fartout sets in early.

Frankly I don't have enough experience with a wide range of 12" and 15" woofers in sealed boxes to suggest guidelines that have a reasonable chance of working with an unknown woofer. Maybe 2 to 2.5 cubic feet for a 15" woofer, and maybe 1.5 to 1.75 cubic feet for a 12" woofer, but that's just a guess. If you get a response from someone who can offer more than a guess, take their suggestion over mine.

Here's a link to an online box calculator:

http://www.diyaudioandvideo.com/Calculator/Box/
 
I moved to Louisiana when I was 10, so I'm no Cajun, but yeah, I'm from the bayou. Lived in N.O. for 6 years. I appreciate your response.

I've got speakers with this on back of round mags (bout 1.5" deep) with a rubber surround:

30cm P.D. Speaker
EAS-30P09SB
8ohm Japan

on the paper C3010D

I'm playing these in the cab I bought with them installed (original, pretty sure) with Kingston metal logo on old school grill. There is a surviving metal tag on the bottom the says Japan. The speakers sound pretty good, BUT: the box is only 27x16.5x 7deep (interior). The cab is made of 3/8" wood and has two rectangles cut into the back-- vertical 15" tall by 2" wide. Holes are covered with grill mesh. Surely, I can get give these speakers a better home than that!?

thanks again,
fnord!
 
Mr. LeJeune,
I have searched for any info on this cab or the speakers, but hit a black hole.
I also have a pair of 1976 CTS 10" with square mag, rubber surround. In green on mag: 10400 ; 137 7644. Had to patch one of them; came sans cab. Figured I give them a shot as a 2x10 with same interior cab dimensions as the individual compartments in the early 70's CTS 8x10s. Black hole as far as info on these old speakers as well.
fnord!
 
Well I was born in New Orleans but lived elsewhere for the next 25 years (military brat), so I'm genetically half Cajun but can't speak it, not even close. Tried to speak school-learned French to some Cajuns once, and they busted out laughing because I "talked like a sissy". Then they gave me a wedgie and took my lunch money. Okay not really, but they probably wanted to.

Thanks for the additional information on the speakers. Okay, we have a few clues. That opening in the back isn't dimensioned like a traditional port, more like what you'd see in an open-back guitar cab, so assuming competent design, I'm inclined to guess it's more of a wideband speaker than a "woofer" per se.

What does it sound like? I mean, does it sound like an approximately "fullrange" speaker; could you use it for vocals? Or is it muffled on top, like a woofer that would normally be used with a tweeter?

Your plan for the square-magnet CTS speakers sounds very good to me.
 
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When I moved to Richard, LA in 1980, the kids at the local elementary would ask me if I was from England. Moved from Savannah, GA. All my families from Bama.

When I first got these Japanese speakers I did a search on TB and hit up the exact same speakers.
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f15/help-210797/
quoting op:
ok i got the speaker out of the amp this is what it says on the back of the magnet. 30cm. p.d speaker eas-30p09sb 8ohms japan . any help would be great.tks matt

Apparently, his came from a wabash deluxe bass amp.

All I can say about sound is that they don't fart like my Peavey Basic 112 speaker. But, obviously, I'm not totally pleased as I'd like to try them in a new cab design.
f n o r d !
 
I've found a handful of 12's that model close to the SVT fridge in a net 1cf box. It helps if you have the specs for the speaker to model it first. Assuming you don't and don't have access to fancy EE measurement equipment to measure them yourself, it'll be trial and error.

So if you're ok with possibly not getting something that great (but hopefully learning from it), I'd say build a test box to try them in. Build it from MDF or cheap ply. Size it large, like 2-3cf per driver. You can throw in foam blocks to shrink it later and hear how it changes the sound. You could chop it up and add ports, too, and seal them again to hear the difference. If/when you get something sounding great, bust out the good wood and build the real thing.

Search for sealed 12's on here to get some ideas for other speakers if you want to try more vetted designs / speakers.
 
When I moved to Richard, LA in 1980, the kids at the local elementary would ask me if I was from England. Moved from Savannah, GA. All my families from Bama.

HA! That's great!!

All I can say about sound is that they don't fart like my Peavey Basic 112 speaker. But, obviously, I'm not totally pleased as I'd like to try them in a new cab design.
f n o r d !

Okay, if they're not farting in the box you described (roughly .9 cubic feet per woofer, tuned to about 130 Hz[!!]), then I don't think they're fart-prone to begin with.

I think you can safely put them in a sealed box of between 1.2 and 2.0 cubic feet per woofer.

But you need to listen to signs of distress from the woofers. Normally fartout is how the woofers tell you they're being pushed too hard - if these woofers are made so that they don't fartout, you run a higher risk of cooking them because by the time you hear them complaining, it may be too late. So listen for when they start to compress, as that's a sign of either overheating and/or over-excursion (even if you don't hear obvious fartout), and that's when you need to back off a bit.

This is a case where you might be able to get a bit more low-end energy and improve the excursion-limited power handling by porting the box and tuning it unusually low. Cone motion is reduced in the region of the tuning frequency, and I think we can take advantage of that.

So let me know how many woofers per box you're planning on, and I'll work up a suggested enclosure. It will be a low-tuned vented box, with ports that can be easily plugged to convert it into a sealed box (useful if you're in a boomy room).
 
HA! That's great!!



Okay, if they're not farting in the box you described (roughly .9 cubic feet per woofer, tuned to about 130 Hz[!!]), then I don't think they're fart-prone to begin with.

I think you can safely put them in a sealed box of between 1.2 and 2.0 cubic feet per woofer.

But you need to listen to signs of distress from the woofers. Normally fartout is how the woofers tell you they're being pushed too hard - if these woofers are made so that they don't fartout, you run a higher risk of cooking them because by the time you hear them complaining, it may be too late. So listen for when they start to compress, as that's a sign of either overheating and/or over-excursion (even if you don't hear obvious fartout), and that's when you need to back off a bit.

This is a case where you might be able to get a bit more low-end energy and improve the excursion-limited power handling by porting the box and tuning it unusually low. Cone motion is reduced in the region of the tuning frequency, and I think we can take advantage of that.

So let me know how many woofers per box you're planning on, and I'll work up a suggested enclosure. It will be a low-tuned vented box, with ports that can be easily plugged to convert it into a sealed box (useful if you're in a boomy room).

Wow, my sincere thanks. It is just two 12" woofers. I'm in learning stage on the instrument and just need a small cab to practice fart free. If you get me the design, I will definitely build it as have lots of carpentry experience (tools, etc.).
Thanks again kind sir,
f n o r d!
 
Wow, my sincere thanks. It is just two 12" woofers. I'm in learning stage on the instrument and just need a small cab to practice fart free. If you get me the design, I will definitely build it as have lots of carpentry experience (tools, etc.).
Thanks again kind sir,
f n o r d!

You're quite welcome.

Okay, here's what I suggest: Inner dimensions, 27" tall by 17.25" wide by 13" deep. You can adjust these dimensions as you see fit, keeping the internal volume within 5% of 3.5 cubic feet.

Woofers in a vertical stack on the front of the box, window-pane style horizontal brace in between the two woofers, to stiffen the box.

Install four 3" diameter ports, made from PVC pipe, each 6.0" long. They go on the rear of the enclosure, with at least one lower than the magnet of the bottom woofer, and at least one higher than the magnet of the top woofer. This will allow some "chimney effect" cooling as hot air exits the top port(s), drawing cool air in through the bottom port(s).

Cover roughly 50% of the inside surfaces with 1" thick open-cell foam, I use WalMart mattress topper foam. It's gotta be open-cell foam - if in doubt, try blowing through it. I use spray-on glue but use whatever you want to hold it in place.

When you buy the PVC pipe for the ports, get four 3" diameter expandable plumber's test plugs, and make sure they actually fit your 3" diameter pipe (sometimes the inside diameter is less than 3"). These are your secret weapon. With all four ports open, your box is tuned to 48 Hz. With two ports plugged (ideally leaving one high and one low still open), the tuning frequency drops to 35 Hz, tightening up the bottom end. Plug all four ports and, you guessed it, sealed box. Three different low-end voicings. Actually more than that - you can also try one port plugged, or three ports plugged.

I like to glue some 1x2 white pine edgewise between port cut-outs to strenghten that area, as otherwise it's inherently weak.

My guess is that two ports plugged will be a good starting point. I would expect all ports open to be too boomy, but I may be wrong, as I'm just making assumptions about your woofers.

One more thing - let's trick out those ports a bit. Chuffing sets in when the airflow goes turbulent, and that will happen at the inside opening first, because the flush baffle around the outside opening helps to funnel the airflow into it a bit (think of the air as behaving like water flowing through a pipe). To reduce turbulence at that inner opening, we need to make the opening larger. So cut that inner opening on a 45 degree angle, and now you have a large oval opening of greater cross-sectional area than if you'd cut straight across the end of the tube. You want the measurement down the centerline to be 6 inches. This will help delay the onset of chuffing a little bit if you really push the cab hard. If you decide to do this, make sure you allow adequate clearance for the woofer magnet, as the long side of the port will now be a little over 7.5 inches deep.

Okay all this port area, plus the angle-cut ports, is probably way overkill for these older woofers. That's okay, this stuff won't be overkill for your next generation of 12" woofers. This box will work with any Eminence 12" woofer suitable for bass guitar, so when you're ready for a bit more punch, you'll already have the box made. You could even drop in a pair of the mighty Kappalite 3012LFs and have an honest 900-watt capable tweeterless bass cab.

Feel free to do whatever you want of course, these are just suggestions.
 
Duke,
Fired Up! I almost want to take my quite drunken ass to my shop to start cutting wood.
Could you define "chuffing?" Is that the tech term for the fart or wonk? You have given me much to research… happily! But for starters, is 3/4" ply okay? better options?

to quote you:
Feel free to do whatever you want of course, these are just suggestions.

I'll keep that in mind as I learn along the way,
signed,
young grasshopper
 
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"Chuffing" is port noise, which can occur when the port diameter is too small for the amount of air the woofer is trying to force through it. And "farting" is severe woofer distortion... in this context, anyway.

3/4" plywood is great! Since you're an experienced woodworker, you're already ahead of the game.

Excess liquid courage + tablesaw = not enough fingers left to play bass... wait it out!

The speaker-builder hobbyist bug is a nasty one. It bit me in 1979, and I never recovered. Got so bad I either had to join a twelve-step program or become a manufacturer.
 
I have some questions
quote:
Install four 3" diameter ports, made from PVC pipe, each 6.0" long. They go on the rear of the enclosure, with at least one lower than the magnet of the bottom woofer, and at least one higher than the magnet of the top woofer. This will allow some "chimney effect" cooling as hot air exits the top port(s), drawing cool air in through the bottom port(s).

question:
Should all ports be on one side? Or two on each side, one each above and below cones? When I the cut holes, what seals the gap between pvc and wood? Should they be flush with rear exterior (and that's where to measure for the 6" center in the angle cut)? Also, for plugging the pvc: do you suggest ones that screw in, or just a tight insert that one would normally glue in for irrigation/plumbing.

quote:
Cover roughly 50% of the inside surfaces with 1" thick open-cell foam

question:
Where do you put it? Randomly, in the corners, just front and back?

Thanks again; It's guys like you that make me brag to my twanger friends about TB,
fnord!
 
I've found a handful of 12's that model close to the SVT fridge in a net 1cf box. It helps if you have the specs for the speaker to model it first. Assuming you don't and don't have access to fancy EE measurement equipment to measure them yourself, it'll be trial and error.

So if you're ok with possibly not getting something that great (but hopefully learning from it), I'd say build a test box to try them in. Build it from MDF or cheap ply. Size it large, like 2-3cf per driver. You can throw in foam blocks to shrink it later and hear how it changes the sound. You could chop it up and add ports, too, and seal them again to hear the difference. If/when you get something sounding great, bust out the good wood and build the real thing.

Search for sealed 12's on here to get some ideas for other speakers if you want to try more vetted designs / speakers.

Astack,
I want to thank you for the information. I'm up to building a test box or two as you describe, for sure. What kind of foam blocks do you use? When you say "chop it up," is that in reference to the port holes or something different, maybe making two sealed chambers for the two 12's?
All advice is needed. What is your "good wood?" I have seen some custom jobs using cabinet (household) wood that seems lighter and maybe more dense than 3/4 ply?

thanks again, going to Search for sealed 12's after sign off.
I'm new at this, but bass sound is my passion now,
fnord!
 
question:
Should all ports be on one side? Or two on each side, one each above and below cones? When I the cut holes, what seals the gap between pvc and wood? Should they be flush with rear exterior (and that's where to measure for the 6" center in the angle cut)? Also, for plugging the pvc: do you suggest ones that screw in, or just a tight insert that one would normally glue in for irrigation/plumbing.

If there's not enough depth to put the ports in a vertical line down the back of the cab, I'd alternate sides, just in the interest of trying to keep a symmetrical airload on the back of the cone.

I'm thinking Gorilla Glue would be good for the ports, as it expands when it dries. After it's dry you can trim the excess glue flush with the outside of the box using a boxcutter blade. Actually I use 3" diameter Precision Ports, and attach them with screws (eight per port), so I may not be the best resource for ways to glue ports in place.

Yes, they should be flush with the rear exterior, and yes measure the centerline from the center of that outer opening. Great precision isn't required on the port length - within a half-inch is close enough, and if some are a half-inch long to offset those that came out a half-inch short, all the better.

Here are the kinds of plugs I have in mind:

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed] (this is what I use)

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed] (the wingnut-style is a bit easier to un-tighten)

question:
Where do you put [the foam]? Randomly, in the corners, just front and back?

I generally try to stagger the foam around a bit, such that there's usually a foam-covered area directly across from a bare area, but if something else strikes you in the moment as making more sense, just go with it. I don't think there's really a wrong way, as long as airflow into the ports is unimpeded.
 
If there's not enough depth to put the ports in a vertical line down the back of the cab, I'd alternate sides, just in the interest of trying to keep a symmetrical airload on the back of the cone.


Reading between the lines, here. It is (as a general rule with my 2x12 set up) better to have such a 4 ported system all in a row vertically? I ask because you said "at least one port above the cone and one below," paraphrasing here. So I thought perhaps the split is best. I can put them all vertical on one side, if that's the way to go.


Great links to the pro port gear! Who would have thunk such things exist?
 
Reading between the lines, here. It is (as a general rule with my 2x12 set up) better to have such a 4 ported system all in a row vertically? I ask because you said "at least one port above the cone and one below," paraphrasing here. So I thought perhaps the split is best. I can put them all vertical on one side, if that's the way to go.

Well imo a worthwhile consideration if you do eventually upgrade to uberwoofers like the 3012LF in your cab is this: Maintaining a symmetrical airload on the back of the cone. A very long-excursion woofer will generate high internal pressure inside the box, and if that pressure is greater on one side of the cone than the other, the cone will tend to rock. And in the extreme, that side-to-side rocking can cause the voice coil to click against the sides of the magnetic gap on certain notes. Yes, voice of experience. So that's why I recommend staggering the ports, instead of putting them all off to one side, if a vertical row isn't practical.
 
Astack,

I want to thank you for the information. I'm up to building a test box or two as you describe, for sure. What kind of foam blocks do you use? When you say "chop it up," is that in reference to the port holes or something different, maybe making two sealed chambers for the two 12's?

All advice is needed. What is your "good wood?" I have seen some custom jobs using cabinet (household) wood that seems lighter and maybe more dense than 3/4 ply?



thanks again, going to Search for sealed 12's after sign off.

I'm new at this, but bass sound is my passion now,

fnord!


I've never done the foam block thing, but the idea is to get a block of a non-porous something or other to shrink the volume. Could be wood blocks, too.

Chop it up = cut holes for ports.

Doing two sealed off compartments could be useful, too. The SVT has four sealed compartments, for example. If anything fails, your speaker-to-box volume ratio doesn't get too messed up. It also helps if you want to mix drivers, like one guitar speaker and one bass speaker, so they aren't fighting each other.

The industry standard good wood is 3/4" void-free Baltic Birch. If you hand pick it, you can get pretty good stuff at your big-box home improvement store. The fancy stuff is light-weight marine ply, like Okume or Italian Polar.

You can go down to 1/2" ply if you brace the panels with either dowels centered on opposite panels and/or fins along the middle of panels. Again, digging around build threads here you'll see what I mean.

Duke, very clever with the angled cuts on the port ends. I'll probably steal that.