Playing in same position in major and minor...

[Saxn]

I have been toying with the idea for a while and was just wondering if anyone has tried this. I really like the 'feel' of playing with my index on the root, and I can pretty easily stretch across 6 frets. It's particularly easy to stretch back one fret from 'home' position with the index finger, so I was thinking that I theoretically COULD play the same position in both major and minor just by stretching back one fret to hit the major third and major sixth... without using two entirely different fingering patterns.

Being relatively new, I am pretty adamant about not wanting to develop bad habits that could hurt later, so I thought I'd ask some more experienced guys what their take on it is. I know the standard is to play with the index on the root in minor and the middle finger on the root in major... is there any reason not to do it the way I described above? Speed? Ergonomics?

 

[1958Bassman]

I have been toying with the idea for a while and was just wondering if anyone has tried this. I really like the 'feel' of playing with my index on the root, and I can pretty easily stretch across 6 frets. It's particularly easy to stretch back one fret from 'home' position with the index finger, so I was thinking that I theoretically COULD play the same position in both major and minor just by stretching back one fret to hit the major third and major sixth... without using two entirely different fingering patterns.

Being relatively new, I am pretty adamant about not wanting to develop bad habits that could hurt later, so I thought I'd ask some more experienced guys what their take on it is. I know the standard is to play with the index on the root in minor and the middle finger on the root in major... is there any reason not to do it the way I described above? Speed? Ergonomics?

You should be able to play all scales, chords and arpeggios in any position, starting with any finger. That way, "comfort" will have nothing to do with what you play, where or when. Needing to regroup because you're not in your "happy place" on the neck isn't a good thing-it removes any continuity that would otherwise contribute positively to the music you're playing.

 

[BullFrogJR]

You should be able to play all scales, chords and arpeggios in any position, starting with any finger. That way, "comfort" will have nothing to do with what you play, where or when. Needing to regroup because you're not in your "happy place" on the neck isn't a good thing-it removes any continuity that would otherwise contribute positively to the music you're playing.

Yup, this is exactly my thinking about this.

I've always felt that you never really want to get locked into playing a certain note with a certain finger. For example, as OP describes, liking the "feel" of playing with your index finger on the root. I feel this may lead to a bad habit were you get stuck having to play certain notes with certain fingers only, and that could be limiting.

In my experience, and in my opinion, the two most important things that determine what finger you use to play a particular note are: 1) what note you are coming from before you play that note; and 2) what note you will be going to after you play that note. I think this will give you the most versatility.

 

[pbass888]

try ray petersons new book on jaco. beside the usual songs etc. shows extended and basic fingerings for scales in two octave on a fretboard and nice ideas of staying in the same position. ron carters book also has excercises playing walking blues in 1 position for all 12 bars.
hope it helps

 

[Fergie Fulton]

There is no one way to play major or minor scales. But there are two considerations a developing player should be aware of, One is scaler one is chordal.

Play your major scale staring on the middle finger, then play the chord without changing....can't do it because the 5th blocks the 3rd???? Now play the scale toward the nut starting on the little finger, then play the chord....now the root, 3rd, 5th and tonic can be played over the four strings.....minor scale works the same way when started on the little finger, you can play the chord after it.

If we understand that because a bass is tuned in 4ths then it becomes about playing notes rather than position, positions are good, but they are just a tool.

To play a chromatic scale for example we start on the E string with the forefinger and play four notes, with a slight move one fret to the nut and moving to the A string and play those four notes, then repeat again with a slight move to the nut on fret and play those four notes etc we are playing chromatic across the strings.

If anyone has not thought about it, work out how to come back chromatically to end up back at the root....works in any position when a bass is tuned in 4ths with the same minimal movement.

This is just one basic way to play a chromatic scale using four notes per string...i can be learned all the way up to 12 notes per string and beyond.

 

[Saxn]

Exactly the kind of stuff i was hoping for!

OK, so be comfortable everywhere. Check. I have heard that before, and I DO plan to get there... I am currently pretty goot in only two positions... root and seventh! I was just wondering if I could stretch the functionality of that root position a little bit. However, I hear ya and completely agree that I need to get out of my aone (or rut, depending ) and stretch out into other positions on the fretboard.

Fergie, great stuff, and I will look into it this afternoon! Particularly the bit about the chromatic movement across the board... I never thought of it that way. And I know from playing sax that thinking chromatically can get you FAR once you're comfortable with it. Seems a worthwhile exercise to try. If I can ask though - I am a little bit confused about the chord exercise you were referring to, where you said:

Play your major scale staring on the middle finger, then play the chord without changing....can't do it because the 5th blocks the 3rd????

I assume you're meaning something other than 1-3-5 with the middle finger on the root, because I don't experience any "3rd blockage" there Can you elaborate on that a little bit?

Thanks for all the input fellas... please do keep it coming!

 

[tsar nicholas]

Good thread! I was going to weigh in here, but the heavies have said all I could plus much more already. Key concepts.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

Fergie, great stuff, and I will look into it this afternoon! Particularly the bit about the chromatic movement across the board... I never thought of it that way. And I know from playing sax that thinking chromatically can get you FAR once you're comfortable with it. Seems a worthwhile exercise to try. If I can ask though - I am a little bit confused about the chord exercise you were referring to, where you said:

I assume you're meaning something other than 1-3-5 with the middle finger on the root, because I don't experience any "3rd blockage" there Can you elaborate on that a little bit?

Thanks for all the input fellas... please do keep it coming!

That's it, when playing anything because of the tuning in 4th we have options i fingerings. So if someone always practices scales off the middle finger, then as you say the 3rd is blocked. Try looking at it as not only the 3rd but all notes under the 5th are blocked to fretting.

Here is part of a lesson i teach, it may look long, but in truth it is a 15 minute lesson to teach, so take time and read it through a few times and see if you can picture what is being said. Then work through the lesson example and then see if you can picture what was being said. If you can do that then just move through all 12 keys and in each case see if you can see it before you play it.

I call working out fingering options as " fret mapping", this is just a way of examining what fingerings are possible to use and what ones are best to use. The chromatic exercise i mentioned will open up the ideas of this and help see and hear more options.

For example "A" chromatic scale over two octaves what are the options?

The key ( nothing to do with music it is the key to the terms used) is the open string and the fret number being used, this has nothing to do with intervals or chord tone numberings, this is purely fret numbers.
So the open strings are named as such, E-A-D-G then the fret number is named to that string
A5= D,
D6= G#,
E= E,
E1= F,
E3 = G,etc

So one option to play "A" chromatic over two octaves are ex1.

A chromatically to A20 (A-A20)
D16 chromatically to D19 (D16-D19)

or another option is ex.2

E5-E20
A16-A19
D15-D18
G14

or another option ex.3

E5-E12
A8-A15
D11-D18
G14

or another option ex4

E5-E8
A4-A7
D3-D6
G2-G14

So now you have the idea of fret mapping, this is just a few of the options for A over two octaves. All we do is learn the options we have rather the any pattern. Once the best option has been choosen, then look for a pattern to learn if need be.

But any fretting postions need to maximize fingerings to make a complete fret map.
As a rule we want to optimize the use of all 4 fingers on the fretting hand following on from each other, so if i call the fingering key, 0-1-2-3-4 then
0 when used is an open string,
1= forefinger,
2= middlefinger,
3= ringfinger,
4= littlefinger

Using "A" chromatic over two octaves again ( because it is familier to us as an example) then what fingering options do we have?

Remember each number represents a finger.
Once we get familier with it we learn to associate the fingers used with the fretting used.
I will touch on why this is so at the end because it is an associated learning that happens....something you become aware of.
Because the fretting is always a new note to the left or right then any repeat numbering is a new note for the numbered finger, again remember each note is fretted once.

Its fair to say our mapping will not follow an even fingering of fours, so the option is to use open strings, move the fingering at the start or at the end. so a fingering may start
0-1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4 etc
1-2-1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4 etc
or end 1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4-1.

So looking again at ex.1

A chromatically to A20 (A-A20) the fingering is 0-1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4
D16 chromatically to D19 (D16-D19) becomes 1-2-3-4

ex.2

E5-E20 =1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4
A16-A19 = 1-2-3-4
D15-D18= 1-2-3-4
G14=1

ex.3

E5-E12 = 1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4
A8-A15 = 1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4
D11-D18 = 1-2-3-4
G14= 1

ex.4

E5-E8 = 1-2-3-4
A4-A7 = 1-2-3-4
D3-D6 = 1-2-3-4
G2-G14 = 1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4-1

In ex.4 G2-G14 is one option, another may be

1-1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4 or
1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4-4

I said earlier about an associated learning with the fingering.
If you have been working on these exercises you will associate that
A -A12
means the hand had to move three times so the the little finger landed on A12 ( the octave) 3x4 = 12.
As we use it we start to associate notes, fret positions, fingerings as one.
Once we start to see and hear A7-8-9-10
as E-F-F#-G then the mapping is becoming internalized and part of the playing skills we draw on.
This means when we see Standard Notation and read the notes
of say a simple latin triad line of

A-C#-D-C#/D-F#-A-F#/E-G#-B-G#/D-F#-A -F#/A-C#-D-C#

We can follow paterns or notes or a combination of them.
This is because in music we are always coming to, staying on passing through, and leaving chord changes and any associated harmony involved. so fretting options for these triads can be

E5-A4-A7-A4/A5-D4-D7-D4/A7-D6-D9-D6/A5-D4-D7-D4/E5-A4-A7-A4

or

E5-A4-D2-A4/A5-D4-G2-D4/A7-D6-G4-D6/A5-D4-G2-D4/E5-A4-D2-A4

or combinations of those two such as

E5-A4-A7-A4/A5-D4-D7-D4/A7-D6-G4-D6/A5-D4-D7-D4/E5-A4-A7-A4

or

E5-A4-D2-A4/A5-D4-G2-D4/A7-D6-G4-D6/A5-D4-D7-D4/E5-A4-D2-A4

These are just some of the options, more include the use of open strings, a new D2-G1-G4 to replace any of the E triads etc. Fret mapping is just about exploring and learning what notes are available to use to fit any playing situation. Its as a skill that once learned never really needs any more thought.
When we read we associate the notes to the fret position, and when ever fret numbers are used we associate the notes to them as a matter of course rather than any pre-planned labouries process

If this post raises any questions, please post them and i will try and answer them if i can. As this is the first time i have written this lesson out if there are any errors please point them out and i will correct them..my eyes are rolling because i have proof read it so many times

 

[Saxn]

Thanks for that detailed reply Fergie! I am reading through it a second time after posting this to make sure I understand everything - unfortunately I won't be able to play through it till Saturday... had to fly out to Ohio for training this week

Again, my thanks, though. i have the feeling there are some good nuggets in there.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

Thanks for that detailed reply Fergie! I am reading through it a second time after posting this to make sure I understand everything - unfortunately I won't be able to play through it till Saturday... had to fly out to Ohio for training this week

Again, my thanks, though. i have the feeling there are some good nuggets in there.

No probs, as said it is a short lesson to teach, but it gives a lifetime of ideas and options.