Double Bass Intonation- how close are you?

[drurb]

Like so many others around here, intonation seems to be a constant battle for me. I've gone on a kick lately to improve mine. Yes, the bow and I are friends again. Exercises every night...

This all made me wonder how close to the "correct" pitch the pros and better players around here actually are in practice. When you're playing along (accompaniment or solo) typically how far off the desired pitch center are you? 5 cents, 10 cents, 15 cents? Another question entirely is how close is close enough but I won't go there now. Of course, we all try to get as close as we can but I'm wondering about what is the usual deviation.

(I'm talking about relative pitch here. Obviously, if you're tuned up or down slightly from A440, all the pitches can be "off" but still be correct relative to each other.)

 

[lucas vigor]

I aim for perfect, but don't always hit it. But, taking things into perspective, I bought a transcription book of Scott LaFaro's solos on the Bill Evans albums....and even the transcriber was not 100% sure....which means that even Scott LaFaro was off on his pitch at times.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I certainly can't quantify it in cents, but I think I'm pretty close most of the time, and definitely aware of it when I'm not (This is without the stick 'o pain, mind you, which some say doesn't count). One thing that helps me monitor practice intonation is doing my warmup exercises (scales in different divisions of the beat, a different key every session) against a drone, which is the musical equivalent of examining your skin under a magnifying glass and a spotlight: very illuminating!

 

[fdeck]

Oddly enough, I usually play exactly 100 or 200 cents out of tune.

Sigh. I'll get out my tuner and experiment.

 

[drurb]

I certainly can't quantify it in cents, but I think I'm pretty close most of the time, and definitely aware of it when I'm not (This is without the stick 'o pain, mind you, which some say doesn't count). One thing that helps me monitor practice intonation is doing my warmup exercises (scales in different divisions of the beat, a different key every session) against a drone, which is the musical equivalent of examining your skin under a magnifying glass and a spotlight: very illuminating!

Thanks. What do you use for the drone?

 

[Stephen Edwards]

When I play with a drone I usually just use my tuner set to the fifth of the scale that I am practicing, or my metronome with its built-in A440.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Thanks. What do you use for the drone?

Either a Dr. Beat (DrURBeat?) or a keyboard with one key taped down on a sine-wavish kind of sound. Either gets the job done.

 

[chicagodoubler]

Drones are very helpful for some but *not* all of the notes in any given harmony. Try this. Play a 2 8ve scale very slowly with a drone then go back and work the scale with a sequencer. You'll be amazed how much more you hear.

Also, tuning to digital sources has finite real world applications unless you are exclusively playing with a digital keyboard as the other pitched instrument in your ensembles. We must always alter our pitch to fit the other players.... who cares how in tune we are if we're out of tune with everyone else?

Broken record- play along with transcriptions! This is the best real world training you can do for pitch, time, and vocabulary. 3 for 1!

 

[OmnitzGarima]

One thing that helps me monitor practice intonation is doing my warmup exercises ( ...) against a drone ...

Excellent idea, I'm going to try this.

 

[OmnitzGarima]

I come from a blues guitar background, and on guitar I constantly bend notes, play things that are no doubt out from perfect pitch. I hit a note below where I want to be, and bend the string until my ear tells me to stop. Why can't you do that on bass? I'm not advocating that I shouldn't aim for perfection, but can't a note slightly off (technically speaking) be just right? It might depend on what everybody else is doing.

When I play bass I'm more concerned with timing, because I feel that the rhythmic element of the bass has a greater impact.

 

[chancletarock]

i agree with the "aim for perfect" method. however something that comforts me is that even the best players (seriously, the best) hit notes that are off sometimes. what i think makes a big difference is being able to adjust it to the right note, and how quickly you can do that. i like being aware of this skill because it makes you much more versatile, and perhaps brings you more peace on the matter - in theory, i suppose it's possible to get to the point where your muscle memory lets you hit the pitch dead-on 99/100 times; but then what do you do in the scenarios that chicagodoubler mentioned? don't get me wrong - i shed intonation every day, fret (no pun intended) about being off, think about it constantly. but i try to approach it with the charlie parker "shed _____ day, then get on stage and play the **** out of it" approach (meaning adjusting your notes when they're not-as-desired).

something i do that has really helped me out is make garageband tracks, with a simple drum beat and a texture that i like to hear for that day. i play a chord type, say Maj7, and play each one for 8 measures at 60-80 bpm, then go down a whole step, and continue ad nauseum. you can insert your favorite exercises here; but the things i like about this in comparison to practicing with a drone is 1) a beat, 2) a chord, and 3) rotation through tonal centers. it's helped with my pitch, rhythm with the bow, and also just hearing/exploring the function of note x over chord y.

good luck!

 

[Les Fret]

Broken record- play along with transcriptions! This is the best real world training you can do for pitch, time, and vocabulary. 3 for 1!

That is true. But not all players from which you play along the transcriptions play with perfect pitch either. So you might be adjusting to someones faulty intonation. Which can also be a good exercise of course.

When you listen to many (also famous) jazz players playing arco you will hear how off pitch they are lots of times.
And also pizzicato. Check out the intonation of for example Ron Carter or Charlie Haden (just to name some, not to say something wrong about the players which I admire greatly). There are many instances where it is not in tune. But they make that up with tons of musicality, groove or creativity.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Another great drone exercise to do is to play a chromatic scale slowly (i.e. - 12 measures of quarter notes or half notes at 60 bpm) against a drone. Every interval has a sweet spot, even the dissonant ones. Paying attention to the way intervals "settle in" to the sweet spot against a drone is great practice for learning to intonate in a real musical situation. It's also a good kind of warmup to open the ears at the beginning of a practice session.

 

[Marc Piane]

That 'sweet spot' concept is key. I suppose it'd be interesting to analyze any given gig and see how that varies depending on all the factors that can influence your perception of said 'spot of sweet'.

Truthfully I rarely do intonation practice per se. I do practice classical etudes with the stick o pain almost daily. For me, if I really have a passage in my ear it'll be clear if it is in or out. I will sometimes play through a passage on piano if I'm not sure how it's supposed to sound.

In the end though I think your sense of pitch just needs to be in you. I think ear training away from the bass is just as helpful as any drones or whatever.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

It's not just bassists who are out - so at Jazz Summerschool we were listening to a Wayne Shorter tune that we were going to play and it was quite clear that he was playing the melody sharp and our tutor who was a trombone player mentioned how he was deliberately creating what he called a "sour" effect, by doing this?

 

[RedLeg]

Another great drone exercise to do is to play a chromatic scale slowly (i.e. - 12 measures of quarter notes or half notes at 60 bpm) against a drone. Every interval has a sweet spot, even the dissonant ones. Paying attention to the way intervals "settle in" to the sweet spot against a drone is great practice for learning to intonate in a real musical situation. It's also a good kind of warmup to open the ears at the beginning of a practice session.

I have never thought of doing that. thanks

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

That 'sweet spot' concept is key. I suppose it'd be interesting to analyze any given gig and see how that varies depending on all the factors that can influence your perception of said 'spot of sweet'.

Truthfully I rarely do intonation practice per se. I do practice classical etudes with the stick o pain almost daily. For me, if I really have a passage in my ear it'll be clear if it is in or out. I will sometimes play through a passage on piano if I'm not sure how it's supposed to sound.

In the end though I think your sense of pitch just needs to be in you. I think ear training away from the bass is just as helpful as any drones or whatever.

I agree, but still like to use the drones for a little objectivity in the same way that the metronome is used to keep me honest as regards microtiming. For regular intonation practice, nothing kicks my *** like playing the cello suites slowly. Any tiny slip is like a paint drip on the Mona Lisa.

 

[chicagodoubler]

Chris,

Lately I've been spending time on just little chunks of the 1st suite- the parts we all mess up....

In Garage Band just import these files
http://www.jsbach.net/midi/midi_solo_cello.html
and have fun!

This is showing me other stuff I thought I had been playing in tune for years... even playing in masterclass or in a big church I had never noticed how bad some of it was.

Anyone interested in tracks to practice with, there's a wealth of resources on Jason Heath's page:
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No matter what level, every serious minded student of the bass owes it to themselves to at least try using a sequenced pitch reference...

 

[damonsmith]

I certainly can't quantify it in cents, but I think I'm pretty close most of the time, and definitely aware of it when I'm not (This is without the stick 'o pain, mind you, which some say doesn't count).

All I am going to say is those of us who do practice with the bow all the time are not thinking we are close most of the time! The bow really shows how *not* close we often are - it is just a lot harder to hear how far you are off pizzicato. That is a hard fact.

I try to brutally face the tuner regularly. Just now on a one octave Ab scale cold, I was about half right down the center and and half within 10 cents. A two octave G up the G string was about the same.
After an hour or so it gets a lot better, but scales and music are very different situations.

+ 1000 on the Bach Suites slow. Those really help. Like it or not so does Simandl. With the bow.

 

[chicagodoubler]

Damon,

+-10 cents is actually pretty d*mn good! I've gotta really be on my game to see the green light all over the neck in all 12 keys.

Dig this- what sounds in tune without reference will often be as much/little as 25 cents out. Practice consistently that way and you'll sound out of tune *consistently* when playing with other instruments. 25 cents is audibly out of tune in harmony for even the average untrained listener. Pull out the chromatic and play blindfolded for a pal if you don't believe me.

Without harmonic context or note for note for pitch reference, it's realllllly easy to lie to yourself about how well we play in tune.

Of course, I'm also a little neurotic and can't stand playing out of tune, so please take all this with a grain of salt.