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Grain Filling..

S

SimplemanBB450

Jan 20, 2009
121
6
Lowville, NY
#1
I am in the process of building a bass where it has a Flamed Maple Top and an Ash Core. In regards to the "grain filling" process, I turned to Reranch for some advise. See the following insert:

...On woods requiring filling and/or sand and sealing the prep work must be done over the dyed wood. This prep work offers a high potential for sanding through the prep coats and into the dyed wood. Sand throughs will sand away the dye and leave a light spot. Sometimes these spots can be re-dyed but it is difficult to dye the spot back to the hue of the surrounding area. For this reason I suggest that wiping on dyes be reserved only for a wood that requires little or no filling. In the guitar world that limits wiping on dyes to maple.

For the rest of the woods in our world spraying the dye over the prepped wood is the best choice. Since water based dyes cannot be sprayed over prepped wood that leaves us with alcohol based dyes.... (taken from Reranch Website).

Its the two statement underlined that makes me feel like there is a contradiction. I intend on purchasing the Reranch Aerosol Dye in Black and Blue, along with their Aerosol Sand & Sealer and a can of Nitrocellulose Clear. Also I'm trying the Timbermate Grain-filler for the Ash proportion of the body.

My concern is, do I lay the dye down 1st and then grain-fill, sand & seal, then clear the body OR grain-fill the body with a sand & sealer, dye the body then finalize with the nitro? Your input would be greatly appreciated.

(I promise to get pixs up of the project as soon as I can upload the pictures from the camera to my computer.)
 
#4
you need to know if you are using a dyeable grain filler and if it is compatable with your sealer and clear. If you are using a colored filler on Swamp Ash, you may want the sealer coat first, as Swamp Ash is much more porous and absorbent than White Ash, and thus to prevent the color seeping into the wood and creating blotchiness, you shoot your sealer first, then fill. If you are using a clear filler or epoxy filler, you can go straight to the wood, and then go color and sealer/clear. If it's white Ash, you can go filler first sand smooth then start your finish. Do not use filler on Maple, there is no need if you sand to 320/400
 
#6
When filling pores, the order in which the steps are taken depends upon whether the pore filler is colored or clear, and whether the color of the pore filler is the same as the color the wood is being dyed or stained, or a different color, e.g. contrasting ceruse.

Several years ago I was hired to finish an ash bass that the owner wanted to be jet black with blood red pores. First, I dyed the wood black, then I sealed the wood and filled the pores with oil-based pore filler tinted red with Japan color. Finally, I applied the clear coat. The barrier coat between the base color and the tinted pore filler effectively restricted the red to the pores, and kept me from sanding into the underlying black base coat when I was sanding the pore filler smooth.

If the stain or dye are the same color as the pore filler, tinted pore filler can sometimes be applied to color both the wood and the pores in a single step if all of the finishing products are compatible with one another.

Keep in mind that the pore filling process sometimes has to be repeated in order to acheive a smooth surface, which is why I usually dye or stain the body and apply tinted pore filler as separate steps.

Hope this helps a little. :)
 
#7
Thank you so much for your input. At this current stage it looks like i have order the Timbermate Grain Filler which is intended for maple / ash / etc wood. I guess my concern is this. If I spray the black dye onto the wood first, allowing the black dye to soak into the pores, sand the body down only exposing the blackened pores and then spray the blue dye followed by applying the Timbermate Grain Filler, would I essentially be filling in the Blackened Wood Grain and loose the affect? The Timbermate Website claim's their product accepts stains very well but how would you get the black dye to only show in the grain? Is this what you were talking about "tinting" the grain filler? I've very excited about this product and sincerely appreciate all your input. If there is a step or a process I am over looking please feel free to correct me. I am completely open for constructed criticism as long as it is in the name of improvement. Thanks.
 
#8
It doesn't make sense for me to offer any more advice until I'm sure I understand exactly what you are trying to achieve.

If you'll succinctly describe what you want your bass to look like, I'll tell you how I'd do it.

For example, if this is what you were trying to achieve:
Blue dye over maple and ash
Ash pores filled with black
Gloss nitrocellulose lacquer clear coat over entire body

This is what I'd do:
Prep wood for finish
Pre-grain raise X2
Dye Body
Seal
Pore Fill - black
Spray Nitrocellulose Sanding Sealer
Sand
Spray Nitrocellulose Gloss Clear Coat - multiple coats
Rub Out Finish

If you've already purchased products, exactly which ones are they?
 
#9
Jazzdogg - you said it best. What you described is my exact intent. I have attached two different pictures of what my goal is...

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The process you described sounds like what i need to do. I do apologize for what seems to be ignorance when in all actuality, it is. Being my first build, I figured there is no stupid question, just stupid people who ask them, jk :smug: I appreciate everyone's input. I will be posting pixs shortly.
 
#12
SimplemanBB450 said:
Jazzdogg - you said it best. What you described is my exact intent. I have attached two different pictures of what my goal is...

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The process you described sounds like what i need to do. I do apologize for what seems to be ignorance when in all actuality, it is. Being my first build, I figured there is no stupid question, just stupid people who ask them, jk :smug: I appreciate everyone's input. I will be posting pixs shortly.
Click to expand...

The photographs you attached do not show tinted pore filler; as Mongo suggested, maple has no open pores to fill. Heightening contrast with pore filler CAN be used on ash, which is ring-porous, but not on maple.

The technique used to achieve that look is a completely different process that exploits the way maple absorbs dyes differentially. The process involves dying the maple black, sanding the wood to remove most of the black, and following with blue. In practice, it's a little more complicated than that, of course.
 
#13
What you guys are stating is so true. The intended purpose of the pictures what to show how the under-lying grain appeared to be exposed through the translucent blue. What i will need to do is post a picture of the body in its current state so you can see the tinting of grain filler is intended for the core / back of the body which is ash. The maple top I never intend on grain filling however I am going to follow the steps stated earlier in the thread and spray the Reranch Black Aerosol Dye over the maple, sand down to the only black exposed grain and re-coat with the Reranch Blue Aerosol Dye giving me the desired affect. Hopefully with practice on the scrap piece I have laying around, when it comes to doing the body, it won't be too much of a headache. Thanks again for everyones in put, it truly is appreciated.
 

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