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Fender Highway 1 - Nitro or Nitro over Poly?
- Thread starter xk49w
- Start date
ibanezcollector
Yoyo's Hurt When You Crank It Into Your Face
trust me when I say it NITRO OVER VERY THICK POLY..
Ive done my fair share of work on them check the site in my sig.. There is very thick poly under that nitro.
Ive done my fair share of work on them check the site in my sig.. There is very thick poly under that nitro.
I thought nitro couldn't stick to poly. Don't you have to use shellac as a buffer?
ibanezcollector
Yoyo's Hurt When You Crank It Into Your Face
Nitro will stick to poly.. I have sprayed a couple basses over a poly undercoat with out a issue just need to rough up the surface.
The finish is very thin. It's ridiculous. Mine seems to chip when I look at it and most of the paint chips are down to the wood through that poly undercoat.
yea i was going to say also, mine chips easy(i dont mind it, i love the nitro because i like relics and i can make this one myself through playing it) but the chips do seem to go right to wood?
Yeah, I have seen you post that before and, after following your work for a while, I certainly agree that if anyone here knows about them it's you.
BUT
I bumped my '07 Jazz with the end of a cable and knocked a small chip out that ended up going right to the wood. There is almost no finish buildup. I was surprised to hear you say it's thick. I have chipped poly finishes before, and it ain't like this... never made it to bare wood before.:
Also, the bass gets little dents in it just by looking at it the wrong way it seems. Is this like the others you have worked on, or did the spraygun run out of poly when they made my body? That is: it's not that I can't see the poly too, but it chipped both & the poly is pretty thin.
Something seems different from what you describe.
By the way, your work keeps getting better.
ibanezcollector
Yoyo's Hurt When You Crank It Into Your Face
thank you how are you guys sure your going to wood? just curious.. if its a small chip..
Now I ask that cause if you chip off the lacquer which will come off extremely easy. it will look like bare wood..
Link Removed
In that picture it would appear that its down to the bare wood but in reality its no where near it.. Thats the poly undercoat showing thru..
And on every HW1 I have worked on and there has been a dozen or so, all have been the same exact way it looks like raw wood but its not..
I did strip one HW1 and thats how I know the thickness of the poly.
Now I ask that cause if you chip off the lacquer which will come off extremely easy. it will look like bare wood..
Link Removed
In that picture it would appear that its down to the bare wood but in reality its no where near it.. Thats the poly undercoat showing thru..
And on every HW1 I have worked on and there has been a dozen or so, all have been the same exact way it looks like raw wood but its not..
I did strip one HW1 and thats how I know the thickness of the poly.
Oh yeah, I believe you 100% - which is why I am confused.
How I know it's bare wood is because of you. I just HAD to see so I picked at the hole with a needle. There is most definitely 3 layers there.
Nitro, a small lip of poly showing and wood... I was even able to pick out some wood fibers.
Maybe it's just chance that the area I chipped had less buildup or a bubble?
How do you get the poly to look like dirty wood? or is that a secret?
Thanks for posting the pic
Just a question - When you guys are referring to "poly undercoat" do you mean the fullerplast base coat that was used on decades worth of Fenders (and is not poly, but will stand up to nearly nuclear abuse and is very difficult to strip) or have you learned from a reliable source that the undercoat on the Hwy1s is acutually poly? Put it another way: Have you verified it's poly or are you just assuming that?
I don't know for sure.
I just assumed it was poly because it's cheap, available & currently in wide use.
Does Fender still use fullerplast?
I just assumed it was poly because it's cheap, available & currently in wide use.
Does Fender still use fullerplast?
ibanezcollector
Yoyo's Hurt When You Crank It Into Your Face
All Fender Guitars made since 1968 are Polyester coated. Lacquer is put on top of the poly to satisfy the general publics belief that Nitro Cellulose (nitro) Lacquer finished guitars "breathe", "dry" and generally have become the bottom line for creating great tone. I'm talking USA, Vintage collectable instruments that the general public has bought, traded, and sold for over 50 years. They came from the Fender factory with a hard plastic jacket underneath it. A suffocating wolf, masquerading under a cloak of Lacquer Fender later switched to 100% Poly and UltraViolet cured Resin on Squire, Mexican, Japanese, some USA and all other imports till this day.
Here is what Mark Kendrick masterbuilder at Fender said.
Pardon my typos. I've lost alot of brain cells in my day. Could it be the 'Nitro'.
The first Fender lap steel was finished in black enamel. When Doc Kauffman and Leo formed K&F guitars in 1945, their original instruments, including the amplifiers, were finished in a lead based, wrinkle coat enamel. A nice shade of Battleship Grey. That was the only color available. After expermenting with different woods other than pine for guitars, they began using nitrocellulose lacquer. They used what was available to the furniture trade at the time.
The original colors were blonde, sunburst, etc... just like your Grandmas coffee table.
Custom colors were introduced in 1955. Once again they were enamel. The same material they used in the auto industry. The enamel would not adhere to the stearate based nitocellulose sanding sealer. Acrylic lacquers were then developed by Dupont to be sprayed on material other than metal. "Duco colors". In order for the paint to adhere, Fender began using a Sherwin Williams product called Homoclad. It was a penetrating, heavy solid, oil based sealer used as a barrier coat to to provide better adhesion for their guitars with custom colors. It was applied by dipping the guitar bodies directly into a 55 gallon drum, filled with the product. ALL Fender guitars produced after 1955 used this product until 1967, when Fender began experimenting with polyesters an undercoat.
By 1968, virtually all Fender guitar products used polyester as an undercoat, including necks. It's a two part product using Methyl Ethyl Ketone(MEK) as a catalyst. The reason the face of the pegheads were not sealed with polyester, is because type 'C' decals (under the finish) would not adhere to the product. While it is true a few guitars may have squeaked by with homoclad, when homoclad wasn't available, they used a Fuller O'Brian product called Ful-O-Plast. PLASTIC!!! It's obvious to me that those necks or bodies were stragglers, having to be reworked for some reason or another and not shipped after the change.
I'd like to make one thing clear... ALL FENDER GUITARS PRODUCED AFTER 1968 HAD A POLYESTER UNDERCOAT WITH A LACQUER TOPCOAT!!! There is no specific ratio. Enough poly was, and is sprayed to properly fill the grain while preventig a burn through while sanding.
In 1983, Fender began using polyuerthane as a topcoat. It cured quicker. It had better clarity. It had more depth and gloss, and didn't melt when you accidently spilled 151 on it. Fender then discontinued the use of polyester on the necks. Polyurethane is a 2 part product using a catalyst.
Fender has continued to use polyester, polyurethane, nitro.
Nitro is not a superior finish. An electric guitar doesn't 'breathe' at 120 db.
Billy Gibbons, Geddy Lee, Alex Lifeson, Joe Perry, Jimi Hendrix, Eric Clapton, Roccco Prestia, Jimmie Vaughn, Nils Lofgren, Vince Gill, Chet Atkins, Tom Hamilton, Lenny Kravitz, Merle Haggard, Don Rich, Darryl Jones, Mike Stern, Larry Carlton, Peter Frampton, Sting, Marty Stuart, just to name a few. More are available upon request.
Hope this helps,
Mark K.
Here is what Mark Kendrick masterbuilder at Fender said.
Pardon my typos. I've lost alot of brain cells in my day. Could it be the 'Nitro'.
The first Fender lap steel was finished in black enamel. When Doc Kauffman and Leo formed K&F guitars in 1945, their original instruments, including the amplifiers, were finished in a lead based, wrinkle coat enamel. A nice shade of Battleship Grey. That was the only color available. After expermenting with different woods other than pine for guitars, they began using nitrocellulose lacquer. They used what was available to the furniture trade at the time.
The original colors were blonde, sunburst, etc... just like your Grandmas coffee table.
Custom colors were introduced in 1955. Once again they were enamel. The same material they used in the auto industry. The enamel would not adhere to the stearate based nitocellulose sanding sealer. Acrylic lacquers were then developed by Dupont to be sprayed on material other than metal. "Duco colors". In order for the paint to adhere, Fender began using a Sherwin Williams product called Homoclad. It was a penetrating, heavy solid, oil based sealer used as a barrier coat to to provide better adhesion for their guitars with custom colors. It was applied by dipping the guitar bodies directly into a 55 gallon drum, filled with the product. ALL Fender guitars produced after 1955 used this product until 1967, when Fender began experimenting with polyesters an undercoat.
By 1968, virtually all Fender guitar products used polyester as an undercoat, including necks. It's a two part product using Methyl Ethyl Ketone(MEK) as a catalyst. The reason the face of the pegheads were not sealed with polyester, is because type 'C' decals (under the finish) would not adhere to the product. While it is true a few guitars may have squeaked by with homoclad, when homoclad wasn't available, they used a Fuller O'Brian product called Ful-O-Plast. PLASTIC!!! It's obvious to me that those necks or bodies were stragglers, having to be reworked for some reason or another and not shipped after the change.
I'd like to make one thing clear... ALL FENDER GUITARS PRODUCED AFTER 1968 HAD A POLYESTER UNDERCOAT WITH A LACQUER TOPCOAT!!! There is no specific ratio. Enough poly was, and is sprayed to properly fill the grain while preventig a burn through while sanding.
In 1983, Fender began using polyuerthane as a topcoat. It cured quicker. It had better clarity. It had more depth and gloss, and didn't melt when you accidently spilled 151 on it. Fender then discontinued the use of polyester on the necks. Polyurethane is a 2 part product using a catalyst.
Fender has continued to use polyester, polyurethane, nitro.
Nitro is not a superior finish. An electric guitar doesn't 'breathe' at 120 db.
Billy Gibbons, Geddy Lee, Alex Lifeson, Joe Perry, Jimi Hendrix, Eric Clapton, Roccco Prestia, Jimmie Vaughn, Nils Lofgren, Vince Gill, Chet Atkins, Tom Hamilton, Lenny Kravitz, Merle Haggard, Don Rich, Darryl Jones, Mike Stern, Larry Carlton, Peter Frampton, Sting, Marty Stuart, just to name a few. More are available upon request.
Hope this helps,
Mark K.
Not positive. I had just never heard they stopped. That's why I was asking. Fullerplast was the ultimate in hard, ornery, tough-to-strip stuff and cost about the same as water.
I've only seen a few of the newer, nitro finished Highways (the original ones were finished in a waxy, acrylic coating that felt kind of cheap to my taste). I have to admit, I like the playablility of the Highway series and thought about buying one of the nitro models and overcoating it with a proper nitro clear coat (not a fan of using cheap finishing to artificially promote premature wear - but, to each his own).
+1, that is what I am seeing. I kinda had the same result as a sewing pin stuck straight-upwards into the bare wood with very little effort and pulled wood fibers
ibanezcollector
Yoyo's Hurt When You Crank It Into Your Face
are these bumps on the edges?
Corners will not have the same amount of build up as the top, side, and back. Which is why its softer, easier to damage, and known to be a pain in the but to painters when wetsanding cause its so easy to just burn right thru..
If its edges then I can see why your getting to wood.
Corners will not have the same amount of build up as the top, side, and back. Which is why its softer, easier to damage, and known to be a pain in the but to painters when wetsanding cause its so easy to just burn right thru..
If its edges then I can see why your getting to wood.
Wow... there you go.
A fun AND educational read.
Thanks man!
edit:
Why yes it is! Mystery solved!
Although I almost bought a Highway One Jazz, I'm just not crazy about the finish on these. Its far too soft. Softer than the old nitrocellulose finish on the vintage instruments. Maybe it just takes a year or two to harden, I don't know, but I just don't think its anything like the old nitrocellulose lacquer.
I know a guitar player who bought a Hwy One Strat brand new. Inside 2 weeks the thing was starting to look worn. Cool for some people, a turnoff to others.
I know a guitar player who bought a Hwy One Strat brand new. Inside 2 weeks the thing was starting to look worn. Cool for some people, a turnoff to others.
ibanezcollector
Yoyo's Hurt When You Crank It Into Your Face
heres another little tid bit most dont know about Lacquer..
It never cures fully.. It dries but never cures..
one drip of lacquer thinner or even lacquer on a vintage instrument will re-wet the spot it was in as if it were just sprayed.. 2 years old or 100 years old.
Interesting isnt it..
Great for luthiers for drop filling areas when people needed repairs which was quite often LOL.
It never cures fully.. It dries but never cures..
one drip of lacquer thinner or even lacquer on a vintage instrument will re-wet the spot it was in as if it were just sprayed.. 2 years old or 100 years old.
Interesting isnt it..
Great for luthiers for drop filling areas when people needed repairs which was quite often LOL.
