Has anyone A\B'd the Epifani Series 1 & 2 UL cabs?

I haven't A/B'd series 1 & 2 cabs but my series 1 ul410 has more upper mids than my series 2 ul210. The 210 has a warmer, more low mid tone. It's not drastic but it's there. As to which one you'll prefer....

I currently own one of each of the UL310's. The main diff between the two is the B&C drivers have a strong mid bump around 380Hz, which means, with no amp EQ, they hit you in the chest more.

The custom Eminence drivers seem to have a wider frequency response, lower lows, and higher highs, but hooked up to the same amp, the S1 310 will "seem" louder. The S2 cab takes EQ VERY nicely, however, so if you want to see what the S1 sounds like if you have an S2, just bump the low mids. I'm told these Eminence drivers are custom for Epifani, but to be honest, they sound very much like the standard Deltalite II's to my ears. Not a bad thing, as I like those speakers and have used many of them. Just a note.

Either one is very capable at handling the horsepower, as well. They're rated at 750W (3x250W drivers) and I'd feel confident pushing them.

How I ended up with one of each is a long story, part of which was my own curiosity between the two's diffs, but at least at this point, I'm kinda' diggin' having one of each. As a stack, they work together really well. The only issue is that odd impedence, so you have to use a 2 ohm capable head or a preamp into a stereo power amp rig to drive both.

This past weekend, I ran my Eden Time Traveler (WT405) direct into them as well as used it as a preamp into my Stewart World 2.1 . The former was very impressive, but the latter had to be heard to be believed.

On a small outdoor gig, I ran the S1 cab solo from that same Eden head, which was probably only putting out MAYBE 400W max, and had no trouble keeping up with vox, keys, and a pretty loud drummer. Very impressive as a standalone cab especially noting its size.

IMHO, the UL410 still reigns king as far as the loudest punchiest, and most "worthy" single cab solution out there, but it's modest bump in dimensions make a more than modest bump in its "carry-ability" for me, so it's not really an option. The 310s are amazingly easy to carry.

Regardless, if you get one or two, definitely get the snap-in caster set from Epifani. Very cool, and even come with the rubber feet to protect the caster baseplates.

Hope this helps.

Bumping the thread because of something KJ said elsewhere:

KJung said:

The Epi410UL is my favorite altime cab... massively loud, full, beautiful top end, and 57 pounds. However, I've been getting some mixed reviews from the new Series II. The whole thing about the original 410UL was huge low end, but massive articulation due to the wonderful mid response of the original B&C drivers (high end stuff). The switch to Eminence drivers seems to have given that cab the 'Eminence' signature of more low mid punch, less deep low end, and less upper mids. That's not a bad thing, but it moves the Epi410UL much closer to the Schroeder410L (which is also Eminence loaded).

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Someone else said here that Epifani claims that the difference in tone between I and II cabs will be negligible. Anyone else care to comment? Thanks!

Fuzzbass said:

Someone else said here that Epifani claims that the difference in tone between I and II cabs will be negligible. Anyone else care to comment? Thanks!

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Hate to say it, to disagree with an Epifani statement, but at least for the UL310, which I now think I have pretty good exposure to both on and off stage, I could not disagree more.

To me, the S1 and S2 UL310's sound very noticeably different. Not better/worse (PURELY subjecitve, 'cause I think quality is identical), but definitely different. EQ can EQualize them pretty effectively, I'm pretty sure you could get anything you wanted out of either, but again, their base tone sounds very diff to me.

Could just find out which models of drivers the OEMS ones are based on, and compare the plots. There's where the differences would be anywhere in the lows and midrange.

greenboy said:

Could just find out which models of drivers the OEMS ones are based on, and compare the plots. There's where the differences would be anywhere in the lows and midrange.

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This is true, but Eminence's policy is to not release any technical information on custom drivers, so that's impossible unless someone wants to create a plot through live testing somehow. I don't know what B&C's policy is, but I'd suspect (and actually hope, believe it or not) the same is true.

However, from subjective testing, the B&C drivers seem to be much stronger right around 380Hz, which is the biggest difference. Other than that, they also seem to be a bit milder the 50-100Hz range and the highs, like maybe around 2-3K or so.

I've managed to get a few OEM specs and graphs from the cab manufacturers themselves in the past (Ampeg has been very good in this respect) and I've found that the changes are often relatively minor anyway. And with the current crop of neos, I suspect that even less is changed.

One set of OEM changes I am aware of involves Avatar. The first time around, with the original Deltalite formula, a coil cap was added and that improved midrange output, and for the 10" version only, xmax was changed, taken from the total mechanical limit. The second time, with the current DLII drivers xmax was changed, again with the same xlim.

Minimal R&D here, as I suspect is going to be a determinant in general in most cases. Though with Nick over the years, I understand that he was working way harder to get a formula that matched his preferences...

greenboy said:

I've managed to get a few OEM specs and graphs from the cab manufacturers themselves in the past (Ampeg has been very good in this respect) and I've found that the changes are often relatively minor anyway. And with the current crop of neos, I suspect that even less is changed.

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Agreed. I'm just stating Eminence policy as it was given to me by Eminence. With the vendor's permission, of course, I believe they'll provide the information, however.

That said, everyone I've talked to about the S2 cabs says they sound pretty much like all the other Deltalite II speakers anyway, so at least subjectively, that might be a good enough model to use anyway.

Vic said:

Agreed. I'm just stating Eminence policy as it was given to me by Eminence. With the vendor's permission, of course, I believe they'll provide the information, however.

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I wonder if any permission was asked of Em. The engineer I talked to over at Ampeg knew I was a tweakhead in a few moments of conversation, and said he'd email or fax me the stuff right away. But lately, i have to wonder if many companies would be wanting to give away their secrets - or lack thereof ; }

Fuzzbass said:

Bumping the thread because of something KJ said elsewhere:



Someone else said here that Epifani claims that the difference in tone between I and II cabs will be negligible. Anyone else care to comment? Thanks!

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hmm...

have the original thread where you quote KJ? cause i'm not quite hearing what KJ hears when he says,

"The switch to Eminence drivers seems to have given that cab the 'Eminence' signature of more low mid punch, less deep low end, and less upper mids. That's not a bad thing, but it moves the Epi410UL much closer to the Schroeder410L (which is also Eminence loaded)."

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my ears are hearing something far different. if anything, the older series i epifani ul410 was in the thicker midrange ball park of the schroe cabs, which sorta explains his love for both cabs. the newer series ii cabs have better clarity that again speaks to my needs better.

with that said, i've never heard the deltalite ii's. but the epifani series i vs. series ii are different, and nick has commented to me that they do indeed sound different and were an evolution of the epifani sound. i mean, he's re-badging them w/ a "series ii" nameplate. lol!

jokerjkny said:

have the original thread where you quote KJ? cause i dont know where KJ got "The switch to Eminence drivers seems to have given that cab the 'Eminence' signature of more low mid punch, less deep low end, and less upper mids. That's not a bad thing, but it moves the Epi410UL much closer to the Schroeder410L (which is also Eminence loaded)." my ears are hearing something far different.

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Yeah, mine would too. The brand name or even the specific models* of the drivers would have far less impact on the final sound than the totally divergent cab designs - which in the case of Schroeder are going to make a decidely different sonic footprint than anything using a stock frontal alignment.


* since Schroes are often using a couple of models per box

jokerjkny said:

hmm...

have the original thread where you quote KJ? cause i dont know where KJ got "The switch to Eminence drivers seems to have given that cab the 'Eminence' signature of more low mid punch, less deep low end, and less upper mids. That's not a bad thing, but it moves the Epi410UL much closer to the Schroeder410L (which is also Eminence loaded)." my ears are hearing something far different.

with that said, i've never heard the deltalite ii's. but the epifani series i vs. series ii are different, and nick has commented to me that they do indeed sound different and were an evolution of the epifani sound.

i mean, he's re-badging them w/ a "series ii" nameplate. lol!

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I think we are all making the same point. They sound different. Some will think the difference is a positive. Some will not.

And remember, the change was due to supply and demand and economics (the Eminence Neo's cost a fraction of what the custom B&C's cost). This was not a design change to improve the product. This was a design change to lower cost and improve the supply change. That doesn't make it bad, but from the feedback I've been getting from some of my peers that are comparing the newer and older models, and my recent experience, they are definitely different voicings (as Vic points out).

After hearing MANY similar boxes at LDS loaded with Eminence vs. B&C neo's, not surprisingly, there are 'tone profiles' that seem to be highly correlated with these two brands of speakers, with the Eminence boxes sounding a little more low mid punchy, slightly less deep low end extension, and the entire mid tone spectrum shifted own a couple of hundred hz. It does not surprise me at all that this seems to be the general description of the Series I and Series II differences, and also what I recently experienced when checking out a Series II 210UL.

As Vic nicely points out, not necessily better or worse, just different. Since the B&C's were a departure from the vast majority of speaker companies (both high and lower end) that use Eminence speakers, I will kind of miss the very unique tone signature of the original UL's. For those who didn't like the originals, the Series II might really float your boat.

jokerjkny said:

my ears are hearing something far different. if anything, the older series i epifani ul410 was in the thicker midrange ball park of the schroe cabs, which sorta explains his love for both cabs. the newer series ii cabs have better clarity that again speaks to my needs better.

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I very much disagree. I hear virtually no similarity between the series I 410UL and the Schroe 410L. The Schroe 410L has a very prominent low mid bump, very little upper mid clarity, and less deep lows than the original 410UL.... the typical Eminence Neo signature to my ear. I even hear this somewhat in the new EA NL-210's.

+1 to Greenboy (as usual)... while the 410UL Series I and Schroe 410L sound NOTHING alike (I've A/B'd them MANY times and ended up not keeping the 410L), the Series II UL's move the tone signature of those cabs a little closer to the low mid punch of the larger Schroeders (again, if you have only played the smaller 1210 and 1212, they have very little in common with the larger cabs)

Again, just stating what is quite obvious from the growing number of comments and also my now direct experience (at least with the 210UL I and II"s), the Series I and Series II sound quite different. I greatly prefer the Series I profile, which does not surprise me, since I greatly prefer virtually every B&C loaded LDS cab that I've heard versus the similar Eminence version. I would think there are many others who would feel the opposite.

Anyway.... we are all again saying virtually the same thing.. they sound quite different, and will appeal to some and not others.

Sorry to go off topic but can someone tell me about the castors Vic mentioned earlier.
Can i get these for my UL212?
I can email Epifani but i thought this route might be quicker to start with.
thanks

greenboy said:

I wonder if any permission was asked of Em. The engineer I talked to over at Ampeg knew I was a tweakhead in a few moments of conversation, and said he'd email or fax me the stuff right away. But lately, i have to wonder if many companies would be wanting to give away their secrets - or lack thereof ; }

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Exactly. And Eminence told me specifically this was their standard policy, (name removed) did not give them any specific instruction to do so.

dave_bass5 said:

Sorry to go off topic but can someone tell me about the castors Vic mentioned earlier.
Can i get these for my UL212?
I can email Epifani but i thought this route might be quicker to start with.
thanks

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Yep, just call them. The snap in casters, base plates, and rubber feet all come together, screw on in a few minutes and are like under $70 shipped, as I recall. Well worth it... a real nice system.