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QSC vs Crest

May 10, 2005
1,427
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NH
www.thorbass.com
Disclosures
Builder: ThorBass
I've been playing lately through an SVT CL and I'm really getting tired of lugging it around. So I've decided it's time for a change. I have this Eden Navigator that I haven't used in a couple years and I'm thinking about a new setup. Since I have an Eden 2x10 and a Carvin 1x18 and the Navigator, I'm thinking how about bi-amping with a big stereo power amp paired up with the Navigator.

So looking at the big boys in the power amp arena, two that stand out are QSC and Crest (CA series). The main differences between them are weight and price. It seems the QSC are way lighter and better price to power ratio. Does this mean they have switching supplies?

Has anyone had experience with both these lines? Is there any general consensus about the relative quality and reliability?

tia...
 
I think the big thing to remember here is lightweight means also you will be dealing with a switching power supply vs. a linear. The linear supply weighs much more (ie iron) but also deals with bass frequencies a whole lot better. As far as QSC vs Crest, I use a Crest and I am very happy with it. I would just like to have somebody else carry it:bassist:
 
Both brands are high quality, and both are used by pro touring companies that run amps a hell of a lot harder than bass payers do, so I doubt reliability is an issue. Pick the one you like based upon power, price, weight and any other features they might have.

There will be no sonic difference between any competently designed Pro poweramps that aren't clipping.

The linear supply weighs much more (ie iron) but also deals with bass frequencies a whole lot better.
Why this guff still keeps getting repeated is beyond me.
 
I've been playing lately through an SVT CL and I'm really getting tired of lugging it around. So I've decided it's time for a change. I have this Eden Navigator that I haven't used in a couple years and I'm thinking about a new setup. Since I have an Eden 2x10 and a Carvin 1x18 and the Navigator, I'm thinking how about bi-amping with a big stereo power amp paired up with the Navigator.

So looking at the big boys in the power amp arena, two that stand out are QSC and Crest (CA series). The main differences between them are weight and price. It seems the QSC are way lighter and better price to power ratio. Does this mean they have switching supplies?

Has anyone had experience with both these lines? Is there any general consensus about the relative quality and reliability?

tia...

I a/b the QSC 1602 and a Crest CA 6. I bought the CA 6.
 
...There will be no sonic difference between any competently designed Pro poweramps that aren't clipping...

I pretty much agree with that, any coloration will be coming from the preamp. I'm more concerned with switching supplies being noisier, less reliable, and harder (expensive) to repair.

I a/b the QSC 1602 and a Crest CA 6. I bought the CA 6.

Yeah, I remember seeing your comments when I did some searches here. Did you happen to take note of how noisy they are with no signal. Both hiss and fan noise?
 
I pretty much agree with that, any coloration will be coming from the preamp. I'm more concerned with switching supplies being noisier, less reliable, and harder (expensive) to repair.
Should show up in the specs if it were so, but not to my knowledge in the better brands.

Harder to repair, more likely for the average tech, but SMPS aren't new tech anymore and reliability should be very good. My Yamaha has a SMPS and I bet it'll go forever like the old linears.
 
Another issue that may or may not be worth considering is dynamic load response time. Low frequencies and slap notes could impose some crazy dynamic loads on the amp. Are switching supplies as fast as linears? I don't see how they could be as fast as just sucking the energy out of a cap the way a linear does. At what point does a complex low frequency wave start to tax linear vs switching supplies dynamically?
 
Another issue that may or may not be worth considering is dynamic load response time. Low frequencies and slap notes could impose some crazy dynamic loads on the amp. Are switching supplies as fast as linears? I don't see how they could be as fast as just sucking the energy out of a cap the way a linear does. At what point does a complex low frequency wave start to tax linear vs switching supplies dynamically?
Resistance to sagging in the supply is due in part to the amount of energy storage, ie the size of the filter caps and the ability to recharge them after the transient passes. In either type it depends upon the design and implementation as to how much current it can provide and how quickly. Apart from weight, with equivalent specification, they should be the same. How each individual implementaion works, depends on how good thed esigner was and the compromises made.
 
I seem to have better luck repairing the switch mode supplies... For a toroidal seems like the only thing you can do for it is replace it. Switch modes some times you can still ID bad components and replace them.

I wish my Ampeg had a smps in it.. because I feel older each time I lift it.
 
I've got both right here. CA6 and PLX2402. When gain matched, they sound identical to my very sensitive ears. The CA has much more gain, so you have to turn the attenuators up higher to reach the same levels.

As long as you buy a quality amp that your preamp can drive properly, it shouldn't make any difference in the final tone which one you choose. If you're getting the amp anywhere near clipping, all bets are off and you should have gone with a more powerful amp.

Search for my posts on this subject and you'll see how opposed I was to this concept. But if you carefully gain match, they really do sound the same.

The PLX has a far superior feature set and is much much lighter. The Crest is a fantastic amp as well.
 
I think the big thing to remember here is lightweight means also you will be dealing with a switching power supply vs. a linear.

You mean a conventional or line-frequency supply. It is not linear but is instead quite non-linear.

The linear (sic) supply weighs much more (ie iron) but also deals with bass frequencies a whole lot better.

Power supplies do not have to deal with the frequencies of the audio signal; they have to provide adequate DC energy to the circuitry.
 
I don't understand how people keep saying that there is no possible way that two power amps designed using completely different princibles and constructed using different components will sound idendical no matter what. I understand, to some degree, the theory behing it after reading countless QSC vs Crest threads but it seems to me that the different parts and design method would have some effect on the sound.

A little confused here - any one able to clear this up for me?
 
I don't understand how people keep saying that there is no possible way that two power amps designed using completely different princibles and constructed using different components will sound idendical no matter what. I understand, to some degree, the theory behing it after reading countless QSC vs Crest threads but it seems to me that the different parts and design method would have some effect on the sound.

A little confused here - any one able to clear this up for me?

It's not that there's no possible way; there are infinite ways to screw things up. It's that if they're well designed to do a particular function, then you should consider that it's likely they would actually do that function.
 
My guess is that the goal of the engineers is to accurately reproduce the input with a heck of a lot of gain. That simple goal is an ideal that all strive for, but all meet the hard cold facts of physics and costs. Crest and QSC make great amps that strive for the same ideal, but with different feature sets and philosophy.

I have a CA-6, but would gladly use a similarly power-rated QSC. I must say, lead sleds do get heavy.
 
I've heard both. I own a QSC PLX 2402. For the most part - these are equivalent amps with no real world, discernable difference other than weight. I sure know whoch one I'd rather lug about ...

Yesterday I listened to an SVT VR on the Bergie NV-610. oh man - did that thing punch and just sound so goood. Of course BrotherNewt looks like he could bench press my car while I change a tire ... ah to be young again. Another rig that I was able to play through yesterday was ScottIce's GK 1001 RB II driving Passinwind's Schroeder 21012 jo mama ... would say it was nice ... real nice ...
For the time being
eqs.jpg


will have to do it for me ...
 
It's not that there's no possible way; there are infinite ways to screw things up. It's that if they're well designed to do a particular function, then you should consider that it's likely they would actually do that function.

CAN two different but well-designed power amps sound different? The knowledgeable and respected EE's seem to always say "No!" Many musicians say "Yes!" I'd like to approach this question in a completely different way. It may turn out that both can be right. (What??:confused:) Here are the assumptions I'm proceeding with for comparing the two amps:

1. The amps being compared are being tested within their linear region, and within their headroom.
2. Frequency response is reasonably flat within the audible range, say +/- 0.1dB 20 - 20K Hz.
3. THD is reasonably low; say 0.1% into the same nominal load, i.e., 4 ohms, at the same wattage.
4. The ear is not able to discern distortion or change of sound at 0.1% THD.

At this point it appears as though Brand A and Brand B should sound identical. I'm sure the EE's would say they will...

But there may be one very important aspect that has not been considered when comparing the sound of two power amps: that of the effects of a reactive load presented to the amps in real world conditions. (Hold on EE's, don't start getting steamed up - YET! "Wait - there's more!" ;)) Let's now say we're talking about the load presented by a real, reactive 4 ohm speaker. We know that the nominal impedance is 4 ohms, but the actual impedance is frequency dependent. "Frequency dependent." That's key in my hypothesis. While amp Brand A and B are putting out the same wattage at 4 ohms, they are NOT putting out that wattage as the impedance changes with regard to frequency, due to the impedance curve of the speaker. Because of the speaker's reactive nature, as the impedance drops at one frequency, the speaker draws more power; as the impedance rises at another frequency, the speaker draws less power. This results in a change in SPL inversely proportional to load impedance. OK, so far, so good - everyone already knows this too.

But here's the problem: THD and frequency response measurements are generally done with a sine wave into a nominal non-reactive load! But a single bass guitar note consists of several frequencies simultaneously: its fundamental frequency and its harmonic frequencies. "Tone" itself is defined as the relative proportion of the amplitude (or, in real world conditions, "SPL") of the fundamental frequency to the amplitude (SPL) of its harmonic overtones. For example, a low E on the bass consists of a fundamental of 41.2Hz, with overtones of 82.4Hz, 123.6Hz, 164.8Hz, 206Hz, 247.2Hz, 329.6Hz, etc. Now here's the "ohm my god" question:

What would be the result if Brand A and Brand B amps both put out the same power at exactly 8 ohms, BUT DID NOT PUT OUT EXACTLY THE SAME POWER AS EACH OTHER AT THE SUB-NOMINAL OR HYPER-NOMINAL IMPEDANCES PRESENTED BY THE REACTIVE SPEAKER? The answer seems simple to me: the actual SPL of certain frequencies would be different in the two amps! This would result in a change in TONE since tone is completely dependent upon the relative strength (SPL) of the harmonics to the fundamental! It is well known that the power put out by two different amps at 8 ohms will not have an identical 4 ohm rating. Depending on design or efficiency, the 4 ohm rating of one amp might be 45% greater than that of its 8 ohm rating, whereas the 4 ohm rating of another amp might be 90% greater than its 8 ohm rating. We also know that some amps rated down to 4 ohms have more trouble putting out power at sub-nominal impedances. Therefore, I'm suggesting that unless each of two different amps puts out exactly the same power at a given load impedance, it doesn't seem possible that they could sound absolutely identical when presented with simultaneous multi-frequency content such as that coming from a bass guitar note with its fundamental and various overtones! :ninja: :hiding: :ninja:

Obviously if the speaker had a constant, non-reactive impedance both amps would sound identical. But it doesn't! IMO, you can talk about the specs or response of a given amplifier academically forever, but you can't actually talk about it's "sound" without it being a function of the reactive speaker load it's driving. Of course, the real question is whether this difference IS actually audible, or how much so. But enough people here have posted their opinions of how they hear different (excellent) power amps sounding different to make me really wonder. EE's, hit me with your best shot on this idea of mine. If I've missed something or am totally off the mark with all of this, I'd rather be set straight than suggest and pass along any misinformation like the one about clipping destroying speakers. :D
 
Your hypothesis seems to be based around the two amps operating at maximum output. If they are both operating within your condition #1 when the impedance halves the ouput of both will double, so no tone change. Or am I missing something?

Personally I don't believe all power amps sound exactly the same. There's probably one of two hi-fi geeks that agree with me. :p
 
But here's the problem: THD and frequency response measurements are generally done with a sine wave into a nominal non-reactive load! But a single bass guitar note consists of several frequencies simultaneously: its fundamental frequency and its harmonic frequencies. "Tone" itself is defined as the relative proportion of the amplitude (or, in real world conditions, "SPL") of the fundamental frequency to the amplitude (SPL) of its harmonic overtones. For example, a low E on the bass consists of a fundamental of 41.2Hz, with overtones of 82.4Hz, 123.6Hz, 164.8Hz, 206Hz, 247.2Hz, 329.6Hz, etc. Now here's the "ohm my god" question:
IMD test show that. A bass is far from the most difficult signal an amp might need to reporoduce faithfully. Take a full orchestra and chorus if you want harnmonic complecity and extreme dynamic range.

What would be the result if Brand A and Brand B amps both put out the same power at exactly 8 ohms, BUT DID NOT PUT OUT EXACTLY THE SAME POWER AS EACH OTHER AT THE SUB-NOMINAL OR HYPER-NOMINAL IMPEDANCES PRESENTED BY THE REACTIVE SPEAKER? The answer seems simple to me: the actual SPL of certain frequencies would be different in the two amps! This would result in a change in TONE since tone is completely dependent upon the relative strength (SPL) of the harmonics to the fundamental! It is well known that the power put out by two different amps at 8 ohms will not have an identical 4 ohm rating. Depending on design or efficiency, the 4 ohm rating of one amp might be 45% greater than that of its 8 ohm rating, whereas the 4 ohm rating of another amp might be 90% greater than its 8 ohm rating. We also know that some amps rated down to 4 ohms have more trouble putting out power at sub-nominal impedances. Therefore, I'm suggesting that unless each of two different amps puts out exactly the same power at a given load impedance, it doesn't seem possible that they could sound absolutely identical when presented with simultaneous multi-frequency content such as that coming from a bass guitar note with its fundamental and various overtones! :ninja: :hiding: :ninja:
None of this is exactly ground breaking and is well understood in analog design. Go and read three decades of JAES.

The typical bass speaker, ie one of more of the same drivers in a box is hardly complex load to anaylse or understand.
 
IMD test show that. A bass is far from the most difficult signal an amp might need to reporoduce faithfully. Take a full orchestra and chorus if you want harnmonic complecity and extreme dynamic range.

None of this is exactly ground breaking and is well understood in analog design. Go and read three decades of JAES.

The typical bass speaker, ie one of more of the same drivers in a box is hardly complex load to anaylse or understand.

Agreed! So why has it not been analyzed in such a thorough manner as to prove (or disprove) that different power amps sound different? :confused: Or HAS it? It would seem like a frightfully easy test to do...and that would put the matter to rest once and for all.;)

And yes, a full orchestra and chorus would present an even more severe test.
 
Your hypothesis seems to be based around the two amps operating at maximum output. If they are both operating within your condition #1 when the impedance halves the ouput of both will double, so no tone change. Or am I missing something?

They don't have to be necessarily operating at maximum output, just anywhere well within their linear range (even in the sub-nominal area of the load). But you have the basic idea: that IF the outputs of both amps double when the impedance is halved, no tone should change. But IF AND ONLY IF. The question I'm asking is whether or not each amp actually WILL show exactly the same load impedance/output relationship. If the two amps are not identical in this manor, I would think there would HAVE to be a relative difference in frequency response between the two amps with a given reactive speaker load. Again, this is the question I'm asking because it may be at least "partially" (no pun intended :)) responsible for why some people are hearing differences between power amps. I'm not an EE, so I need someone mightier than me in this field to answer this. I'm only hopefully smart enough to merely ask the question. :D

Personally I don't believe all power amps sound exactly the same. There's probably one of two hi-fi geeks that agree with me. :p

Agreed. I just think it needs to be further investigated before concluding that those who are hearing a difference aren't completely imagining it. I'm looking for a relative difference in overall frequency response between the two amps caused with a reactive load. To the best of my knowledge, I don't know whether this has ever actually been tested. The EE's may say one doesn't/shouldn't have to. I strongly disagree.