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Threaded insert question

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draftsmann

Apr 30, 2006
272
3
60
Malta (Europe) and Britain
#1
Actually, I'm a visitor from the "other side". I posted this thread in the EUB sub-forum on the double bass side of Talkbass; but as the BG luthier forum enjoys healthy traffic while the tumbleweed blows across the EUB section, I trust nobody will mind if I link to it here in the hope that it might elicit a few more answers from those with experience in using threaded inserts for neck fitting.

Thanks chaps,

Adrian :)
 
#2
Those look exactly like the ones I used to secure a replacement neck on to my 78 P bass. Look to be about the same size. I don't know about using 2 of them in line as the sole support. I'd go 3 minimum in a triangular pattern. Why only 2?

The inserts thread in okay if you size the pilot hole exactly right. Too tight and they jam and you risk splitting the wood. You have to be careful you start the first threads right to get them in straight. Some guys wind them in using a drill press turning the chuck by hand. I did it with an allen key and was very careful. Turned out fine.

To establish the correct pilot hole size experiment on a similar piece of scrap hardwood. If you bugger it they're hard to get out and tough to repair the hole to start over. I put a bit of wax on the threads.

There are smaller ones made than those which I've used to attach graphite necks to bodies and a guitar neck to a body. On a guitar that size insert you're thinking of is too large. I used the drill press method with these.

The smaller inserts I found at a surprisingly well stocked hardware store. Steel will be stronger and less likely to strip than brass.

Other guys here have done this too so a few of them should be along in a while.
 
#3
I have them in my jazz-bass.
When you thread them into the wood be sure to lube them.
You might need to screw them in a little at a time then back them out a half a turn, and repeat until fully seated. This will keep from stripping the hex-key head.

They really make a big difference on the neck stability.
 
#4
I use inserts as standard configuration in several of my bass models, have been using them for many years now, and would suggest you utilize either stainless inserts or (my preference) hardened steel inserts instead of the die cast zinc (or even worse - brass) units you linked to in your other thread

after experimenting with numerous different styles of inserts, here's the style of hardened steel inserts I have found to be the most reliable (these have a 10-24 internal thread)

Steel10-24WoodInserts.jpg


two inserts would probably work OK, but I'd recommend utilizing four unless you have some physical constraint keeping you from it.

I'm also of the mindset that utilizing your drillpress to hand-turn the insert into the neck heel is the optimal workflow to use. Doing so allows you the be certain that you thread the insert into the hole so that it's perpendicular to the heel surface and not at an angle (even hard Maple will give enough to allow your insert to thread into the neck at an angle, requiring you back the insert out, plug the hole, and re-dril for another attempt at installing it correctly - unfortunately I do know this from first-hand experience :crying: )

installation is easiest when done prior to shaping your fingerboard, but since you note that you're using a pre-made neck you don't have this option. I recommend you take the time to find a means to secure the neck onto the drillpress plate so that the heel remains parallel to the plate and perpendicular to the Forstner bit you'll be using to drill the pilot hole - even when the neck is under pressure - since you'll need to apply firm pressure when threading the insert into the neck shaft. I guarantee you that you DON'T want your neck shifting on you while you're installing an insert :crying:

best of success on your project!

all the best,

R
 
#5
draftsmann said:
as the BG luthier forum enjoys healthy traffic ... I trust nobody will mind if I link to it here in the hope that it might elicit a few more answers
Click to expand...
Like I said :D

Thanks chaps, that is most helpful.

Why 2 beefy fixings instead of more and smaller? Because I confess I screwed up a little. A double bass heel is quite deep - because it's intended to live in a socket in a dirty great box - and this particular Chinese maker adds reinforcement in the form of a threaded rod inserted in a hole drilled down the middle, with a nut and washer at either end. These are, of course, hidden by the fingerboard at one end and by the end of the bass' rear plate at the other. Now, I ought to have known better having already bought and assembled a "double bass kit" from the same Chinese factory, which featured the same reinforced heel. Anyway, I forgot about it, and the neck arrived with a bloody great threaded rod right through the middle of the heel. Removing it and plugging the hole ought to have been easy enough...but in an email the very helpful Mr Ma asked if I wanted him to fit the fingerboard. Remembering how much "fun" I had lining up and clamping board to neck on my last DB project, and as this one was intended to be a quick and dirty mini project, I replied "yes please". All of which means that I only have access to one end of the threaded rod. And no, I am not going to remove the fingerboard. Shortening the rod will be easy enough with a hacksaw, but I'm resigned to what's left of it staying put. All of which means....that there is less space for fixings than might otherwise have been the case.

Mr Rodent - I am sure that stainless and hardened inserts are available this side of the pond - I will take your advice and look for them. Thank you.

As for installing the inserts using my drill press, that is going to be somewhat trickier while wielding a bloody great double bass neck and scroll with fingerboard attached and angles everywhere than a nice, compact and FLAT Precision or Jazz bass neck - but I take the point. The easier scheme will I think be to cramp the heel in a portable workbench, flush with the bench surface, and then to use my handheld drill in the neat plunge-router-style cage that I bought some time ago and which is one of the most useful tools I have.

Thanks again chaps,

Adrian
 
#6
bummer on the unexpected challenges of the project

you should be able to clamp the planar edge of the neck base to a fence on your drill press (aka pillar drill) plate and rest the fingerboard surface on a piece of felt that's resting on the bed plate. you can then adjust the plate angle to compensate for the neck angle so that you have a perpendicular alignment

this is one method I utilize when installing inserts as a retrofit job on an already completed bass.

all the best,

R
 
#7
Thanks again, Rodent. What advantage would the drill press method have over using the handheld drill in a plunge-frame (which keeps it perpendicular) with the neck cramped in a workmate?

My pillar drill is one of the smaller benchtop models, and while I could do it the way you suggest I think it'll be more awkward.

Cheers

Adrian
 
#8
maybe your particular drillpress has no advantage vs. your hand-held adapter jig

in my case I align the drilling center point and lock everything down. after drilling the insert hole I change to a driver bit and install the insert before moving to the next hole. I keep everything aligned this way and ensure that I drive the insert from the center point that the hole was drilled from while ensuring that everything remained perpendicular to the heel face

all the best,

R
 
#9
Rodent said:
in my case I align the drilling center point and lock everything down. after drilling the insert hole I change to a driver bit and install the insert before moving to the next hole. I keep everything aligned this way and ensure that I drive the insert from the center point that the hole was drilled from while ensuring that everything remained perpendicular to the heel face
Click to expand...
Ah, that makes perfect sense. I could use a bigger pillar drill in a friend's workshop - I can see the advantage in your method.

While I have your ears, the thing that caught my eye with the threaded inserts I found on eBay UK was that they were an inch deep - twice the size of most of those I've seen. Obviously you're limited on depth with a guitar or bass guitar neck, but I have no such problems with my DB heel, and I figured I'd get a better fixing.

You don't favour the zinc inserts - I appreciate that the threads won't be as durable as steel, but I'm not planning on taking the neck off too often. D'you see any problem in that case?

Thanks again for the advice - it's much appreciated.

Adrian
 
#10
my experience with brass and zinc inserts included the perspective of assembling a DIY package that I could offer for sale at a significantly better price than the gouging a few on-line sellers are doing. if you're not experienced with finessing a brass or zinc insert into a hard piece of wood, it's going to crack a portion of the time - a significant enough amount that I could only see problems selling a product that I knew would cause many people significant issues if (when is more like it) they messed up

I have never cracked one of the steel inserts like I use - and I've tried. even an angle alignment off so bad that I can't physically turn the insert into the wood will not crack the insert.

all the best,

R
 

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