• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Double Bass Where do you sit on the beat?

#2
Depends on the situation and what I feel. Its sort of like this..do you hit with the snare? Do you wait to listen to the snare THEN play? or do you play when you see the drummers hand move down to hit the snare. Kind of a audio / visual way to describe with the beat, behind and on top. Again though, for me, it depends on the song and feel from the rest of the band.
 
#3
Miles Davis once said he could always tell a musicians race because white musicians always sat a little behind the beat, while black musicians were a little ahead. Therefore, being that I'm white I must sit a little behind. :confused: :rollno:

(One of my favorite musicians ever... but man, did he sometimes say some stupid stuff lol).
 
#5
depends entirely on the song.I always lock with the groove but push slightly ahead when it needs it,especially at faster tempos,say from 130bpm upwards.for slower trax sometimes I will just play a little bit behind to give the music a sexy feel.NB :: when i say ahead or behind it´s still locking in time with the beat-so the increments are in milliseconds.

so much of it really depends on your drummer and how you play with him.if he has the discipline to play exactly on the beat then it´s easy.if he has a tendency to get excited and rush time then a good way to control him is to either play right on the beat or drag it a bit behind.remember that a good rhythm section will dictate how an entire gig feels,so in rehearsals always try playing behind or ahead WITH your drummer either ahead/on the groove/behind to get the right feel.

remember that control is what separates the men from the boys,and will turn a good band into a great one.a big element of that is your sense of rhythm dynamic and your analysis of where you will sit on the groove.

now go out and play as if your life depended on it-because at the end of the day,it does!
 
#6
JoZac21 said:
Miles Davis once said he could always tell a musicians race because white musicians always sat a little behind the beat, while black musicians were a little ahead. Therefore, being that I'm white I must sit a little behind. :confused: :rollno:

(One of my favorite musicians ever... but man, did he sometimes say some stupid stuff lol).
Click to expand...

LOL! If I ever said something like that, I'd be tagged a rascist. Coming from Miles Davis, its probably viewed as insightful, noteworthy, and, here on TB, will eventually end up as somebody's sig.

Riis
 
#7
chicago_mike said:
Depends on the situation and what I feel. Its sort of like this..do you hit with the snare? Do you wait to listen to the snare THEN play? or do you play when you see the drummers hand move down to hit the snare. Kind of a audio / visual way to describe with the beat, behind and on top. Again though, for me, it depends on the song and feel from the rest of the band.
Click to expand...

You try that with Billy Higgins, you'll get fired. I think you may be LOST....
 
#8
Kitschead said:
Where do you guys think you sit on the beat?
I'm just starting to hear people talk about this and its kinda new for me. Would you guys say that Ron Carter and PC both sit up pretty forward on the beat?
Click to expand...

I think both those fella's were on the front side of the beat, but not way in front. When I think of in front or on top of (2 ways to say the same thing, I reckon) the beat, the sound I hear in my head is always Ray Brown or Charles Mingus. Can't think of anyone who pushes the beat more than those two.

Oh yeah, I didn't answer your question. I sit on the front of the beat.
 
#10
Be flexible with your time feel. Different musicians are going to hear it differently and you have to listen and find a place to call home.

Also it can be situationally dependent. Playing "I've Got the World on a String" with a singer with a super edgy time feel is going to suck the swing right out of it. Doing the same on a bop tune with an instrumental group the edge puts that added sumpin' sumpin' on the mood.

It's like matching wine with food. A Malbec might not be great with cod but put it with steak and you are in hog (or cow as it were) heaven.

Oh and listen to the ride cymbal. That's where any good drummer puts their conception of time IME.
 
#13
TomSauter said:
PC doesn't sound on top of the beat at all to me, in fact I can think of lots of tunes that he slows down but it still feels good throughout. Check out 'I hear a rhapsody' on Coltrane's Lush Life
Click to expand...

Just listening to a Red Garland trio record and noticed how good it felt that the bass was just in front of the ride
It became one long sound, and one big ass pocket
 
#14
Most of the guys that I try to emulate sit up on the beat. The problem is hearing the time and dance of the groove so that you don't rush. It also depends on the relationship with the drummer. I used to practice with the metronome set to 2 and 4 and try to feel beat placement while being aware of the tempo so that I didn't rush. I'd liken it to having a rubber band between the beat center and me and keep that tension consistent. That way you don't rush. With different drummers and in different situations the distance between your attack and the beat center can vary, but the awareness of that tension---and not increasing it is the goal. If the tension increases you rush. I'm being overly analitical about this and ultimately it is counterproductive to TRY to think this way on a gig. As a matter of fact, any time you think about beat placement on a gig will insure that it will feel like crap. It has to be internalized. Hence, breaking it down and learning to practice it. When I started out, I used to rush like a mofo. So I had to figure out how to practice to have the time and relationship to the beat internalized. Then you have to deal with the drummer. You have to feel the drummer's DANCE. I use this term because it's not just a matter of high hat, ride cymbal, etc. It's all of that combined that produce his groove. I tell students that they have to hear the drummer's dance and naturally place themselves as part of that dance. I know so many bassists that can only play with a certain kind of drummer. Obviously, with a drummer that drags there isn't much you can do but get through the gig and get paid, but it's nice to be able to play with drummers with different time feels. Lots of guys can't play with "center of the beat" drummers. These bassists can only play with an "on top" drummer. Things feel like crap because the bassist's beat placement is so far ahead of the drummer that the beat is uncomfortably wide. And it will have a tendency to rush because the bassist is trying to pull the drummer to his perceived beat placement.
So, my advice is ---practice feeling the beat in different ways with the metronome to solidify yout internal time. Listen to a lot of different bass/drummer combinations to hear/feel what they are doing. If you listen to a lot of successful bass/drummer combinations these will also be internalized as feel references. Listen to how the drummers you are playing with feel the groove. This will also become a natural tendency that will be internalized.
If you do all of these then you can do the most important thing----forget about all of this crap and play. You really can't groove if you're in your left brain analyzing. To paraphrase Miles---if you're thinking about the moment it's already gone.
 
#16
Mike Arnopol said:
Most of the guys that I try to emulate sit up on the beat. The problem is hearing the time and dance of the groove so that you don't rush. It also depends on the relationship with the drummer. I used to practice with the metronome set to 2 and 4 and try to feel beat placement while being aware of the tempo so that I didn't rush. I'd liken it to having a rubber band between the beat center and me and keep that tension consistent. That way you don't rush. With different drummers and in different situations the distance between your attack and the beat center can vary, but the awareness of that tension---and not increasing it is the goal. If the tension increases you rush. I'm being overly analitical about this and ultimately it is counterproductive to TRY to think this way on a gig. As a matter of fact, any time you think about beat placement on a gig will insure that it will feel like crap. It has to be internalized. Hence, breaking it down and learning to practice it. When I started out, I used to rush like a mofo. So I had to figure out how to practice to have the time and relationship to the beat internalized. Then you have to deal with the drummer. You have to feel the drummer's DANCE. I use this term because it's not just a matter of high hat, ride cymbal, etc. It's all of that combined that produce his groove. I tell students that they have to hear the drummer's dance and naturally place themselves as part of that dance. I know so many bassists that can only play with a certain kind of drummer. Obviously, with a drummer that drags there isn't much you can do but get through the gig and get paid, but it's nice to be able to play with drummers with different time feels. Lots of guys can't play with "center of the beat" drummers. These bassists can only play with an "on top" drummer. Things feel like crap because the bassist's beat placement is so far ahead of the drummer that the beat is uncomfortably wide. And it will have a tendency to rush because the bassist is trying to pull the drummer to his perceived beat placement.
So, my advice is ---practice feeling the beat in different ways with the metronome to solidify yout internal time. Listen to a lot of different bass/drummer combinations to hear/feel what they are doing. If you listen to a lot of successful bass/drummer combinations these will also be internalized as feel references. Listen to how the drummers you are playing with feel the groove. This will also become a natural tendency that will be internalized.
If you do all of these then you can do the most important thing----forget about all of this crap and play. You really can't groove if you're in your left brain analyzing. To paraphrase Miles---if you're thinking about the moment it's already gone.
Click to expand...

Pretty much sums it up.
 
#17
Mike Arnopol said:
Then you have to deal with the drummer. You have to feel the drummer's DANCE. I use this term because it's not just a matter of high hat, ride cymbal, etc. It's all of that combined that produce his groove. I tell students that they have to hear the drummer's dance and naturally place themselves as part of that dance. I know so many bassists that can only play with a certain kind of drummer. Obviously, with a drummer that drags there isn't much you can do but get through the gig and get paid, but it's nice to be able to play with drummers with different time feels.
Click to expand...

This the key to being a successful freelance bassist as the bass/drum relationship is one of the most important in any band. I've faced the problem of playing with good drummers whose feel/concept will baffle me at first. I look at it as my responsibility to figure out how to get together with them no matter what. Sometimes it can take many gigs to achieve, but I can usually get there. Openness to change and a willingness to stretch is necessary to become a versatile musician who plays well with others. It doesn't mean you have to like every change or feel comfortable with it, but it means you may have to give up some habits and preconceptions for the sake of the music.
 
#18
absolutely, Eric.
Then when you get away from swing, it's another can of worms. Jazz guys usually do ok with Brazilian feels because Brazilian music has a bit of that forward propulsion. But Afro-Cuban----that's another story. I studied and practiced Afro-Cuban a lot. Got to the point where with a Jazz drummer that played Afro-Cuban on the set things felt good. Then I started getting some calls for real salsa bands. Uh oh. First time playing with a conga, timbales and bongo rhythm section----after the first set---they all said "bro, strong tumbao, but could you lay back a little?" I did and learned to sit back in the groove and now feel pretty comfortable, but it was HARD to change my beat/time perspective. And funk and r&b--jazzers often suck at that. Again it's not something you casually learn. You have to listen to tons of it and play with drummers that play it well.
 
#20
I play a lot without drums. It's an art unto itself. This may sound abstract, but I try to emulate what it FEELS like as if I had the perfect drummer. Not how I'd PLAY with that drummer---it's a different thing----but the groove and dance that we would play together as a net result. Once I have that in my head I play so that with the piano, or whatever that it feels like the groove with the bass/drums combination. It's funny, but it's just a natural adjustment. At this point I'd have a hard time articulating exactly what I do differently. As I said earlier, you have the groove in your head (and your body) and you naturally adjust to actualize that feel. I know that I play with a little more "bounce" ( Ray Brown as opposed to Ron Carter) without drums. I tend to play more forceful but legato with a drummer. It's funny, but I did a recording where we played a very uptempo tune. Sax bass and drums. The producer had this bright idea that they would pull out the drums for the first few choruses. It went on the cd this way ('cest la vie) but it sounded dumb to me. I was playing well, I think, but it sounded exactly as if we had recorded with drums and then removed the drums. Everyone dug it, but I would have played differently without the drums being there. (and i would have sounded better!)
 

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back