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How loud do you really have to be?

GeneralElectric

GeneralElectric

Dec 26, 2007
10,314
1,375
36
NY, NY
#1
I see people saying that they need this many and that many watts all the time. I've gigged with thousand watt ss amps, 300 watt tube amps, and almost everything from here to there. Most people say you'll need at least 300 watts to play a gig.

This kind of baffles me. My main gigging amp is an Ampeg B25 which is a 55 watt tube bass head into an Ampeg SVT115 cabinet. I've gotten a lot of disparaging comments about it, yet I don't see the need for anything bigger. (Tongue in cheek, I've got an early SVT Blueline coming to me)

I've played all sorts of venues around NYC with it. The majority of places here are small clubs and bars that hold 50-200 people. I've played this amp with no problem being heard (I've got recordings of one of my bands at a show that held almost 200 people and the bass is actually too loud) I get a good clean bass tone using a passive P-bass and some grit when I want it.

Granted this amp isn't very good for outdoor shows or extremely large shows, but isn't that what the miracle of FOH support is?
 
#2
It probably depends on the type of music you are playing. I use 50% of the big knob on my GK800rb and I cut through the mix just fine with a Marshall 1/2 and Fender twin cranking on either side with a powerful drummer (26" bass drum Ludwig custom order) with an oversized set. To me I'm not using a lot of SS wattage and cut through very well in the Alt. Pop Rock band I'm playing in. I cannot picture your amp cutting through in my situation but who knows. If you can pull it off that's great. What kind of music are you playing?
 
#3
GeneralElectric said:
Granted this amp isn't very good for outdoor shows or extremely large shows, but isn't that what the miracle of FOH support is?
Click to expand...
+1. If every player, especially drummers and guitar'd players, adopted that attitude they'd keep their hearing a lot longer. I run 160 watts through a 1x12, it's all I need to hear myself, and that's the only reason for having an amp. The PA drives the house, the monitors cover the other players.
 
#4
But what kind of music are you playing? IMO, different genres call for different tone and volume needs. Your 55 watt tube amp works great for what you and your band are doing. Awesome. It wouldn't for me, and I know that because it's not enough speaker area, or enough power for the music I play. Just like my 3 200 watt amps and 5 large cabs would probably get your band banned from the shows you play. ;)

Also, the people using 1200 watt amps are usually the ones playing the quietest in my experience. For them it's usually about having clean headroom. Being able to reach whatever their desired volume is without the amp clipping. So they can still be loud as the guy running 400 watts through the same cab(s) but it will be clean as well.
 
#5
I hear you! (Unintentional pun.) Back in the 80's My Peavey Centurion head and 215D Black Widow cab had no problem ANYWHERE with it's 130 watts. I get buy jammin' with friends with less than that, plus I can fit it in my 2-door Chevy!

X8
 
#6
i often use a b-15n...25 whopping watts of doom. i agree...a lot of bassists just want to hear their bass really loud over everyone else. me, i go for balance and making the onstage mix sound like it's mixed.
 
#7
To most venues I've played and have sat in on, people appreciate still being able to talk to their friends during the show.

Granted unless it's meant to be an outdoor-feel-the-music-show.

My BA-115 100W does just fine with the modest drummer and the guitarist's 15w Marshal.
 
#8
For those inquiring I play in a couple of bands (mostly R&B, Soul, Funk) but my main band is country punk (the one that played the 200 seater) Its loud and aggressive. But generally, in my opinion, audience members don't want to be deaf by the end of it, they just want a good time.

One guitarist plays a Carvin tube head onto a Marshall 4x12 and the other plays a Marshall Lead100 into an Avatar 4x12. The drummer plays a some tiny 5 piece kit and we have our own PA.
 
#9
Metal Matt said:
But what kind of music are you playing? IMO, different genres call for different tone and volume needs.
Click to expand...

+1

If you're a session guy, living in the city, moving around alot, then smaller is better, and chances are you're playing music that is relatively listenable and accessible. And you're playing clubs with FOH support.

But be aware that there's a burgeoning movement of "amp-worship" bands that play rat holes and freeway overpasses and parking lots with no PA whatsoever.


(Lightning Bolt)

At one point in the early 2000s, Brian Gibson's bass rig was rumored to be 6000 watts, and you could still hear the drummer over it.

A big part of your volume depends upon how your drummer likes to play, and what you're going for.

The last project I was in, I had to use my SVT pushing two 18s and two 15s just to get the drummer to stop asking me to turn up. Both guitarists had full stacks.
 
#10
GeneralElectric said:
Granted this amp isn't very good for outdoor shows or extremely large shows, but isn't that what the miracle of FOH support is?
Click to expand...

There are many factors that determine how loud you need to be, but the two big ones are:

1) Do you have FOH support?
2) How loud are your bandmates playing onstage?

One of my bands plays loud rock, and the drummer and guitarist play very loud onstage: the drummer hits hard and has a loud kit, the guitarist has a 100-watt Mesa 4x12 rig, and FOH is used only for vocals and kick drum. When the guitarist gets stoopid loud I need more than 600 solid state watts thru my NV610 to keep up. Believe me, I wish that weren't the case, but the band has its good points.

That said, I'm getting a double 1x12 rig for my other bands, who play at reasonable volume. 300 tube watts would be plenty, but I'll be using the same rack rig... I just won't need to bridge the power amp!
 
#11
My theory is have an amp that allows to to maintain your technique, playing in live situations.
I have found that I really tend to dig in playing with the band vs playing by myself. In doing so, I find that my technique gets shot all to crap.
Turning my amp up, just a bit beyond what I think it should be, forces me to be much more mindful of myself and in turn, lightens up my touch and allows me to play the way I practice.
Just another thought for yah.
Fishheadjoe
 
#12
In my most recent Rock band, there were times where I needed to have the Master past 12 o'clock on an amp capable of pushing 350 watts into a 4 ohm 410 cab. That isn't the norm, but I do sometimes need to push it a bit.

One of my current bands seems to play pretty quietly, so I don't think I'll need nearly so much power to be heard with them.
 
#13
(IMO) I would like the stage volume set at a comfortable level; Unfortunately I have no control over how loud the other players I'm sharing the stage with are. Most of the time, I played on smaller stages in bars, and most of the people I've played with play fairly loud. I have used hearing protection since I was in my mid 20's.

For a few years, I played in a band where the bandleader demanded that the band played at a lower level, and I loved it.

I drive semi truck cross country these days, and I'm not in a band at this point, but when I do get into another band, I hope to find players who share my ideas about playing at a more reasonable volume level.

As far as overall volume is concerned, I want to be able to hear myself, but I don't want to overpower the mix.
 
#15
Doesn't this type of discussion pop up just as frequently as the "what speaker should I get" or the "can I rewire my 8 ohm cab" threads - man it gets old !

Why should anyone have to justify to someone else, or validate themselves on how big or small their rig is ?

Whether you are using a multi-thousand watt monster rig, or a under 100W rig, WHO CARES

If it works for you - great
 
#16
GeneralElectric said:
I see people saying that they need this many and that many watts all the time. I've gigged with thousand watt ss amps, 300 watt tube amps, and almost everything from here to there. Most people say you'll need at least 300 watts to play a gig.

This kind of baffles me. My main gigging amp is an Ampeg B25 which is a 55 watt tube bass head into an Ampeg SVT115 cabinet. I've gotten a lot of disparaging comments about it, yet I don't see the need for anything bigger. (Tongue in cheek, I've got an early SVT Blueline coming to me)

I've played all sorts of venues around NYC with it. The majority of places here are small clubs and bars that hold 50-200 people. I've played this amp with no problem being heard (I've got recordings of one of my bands at a show that held almost 200 people and the bass is actually too loud) I get a good clean bass tone using a passive P-bass and some grit when I want it.

Granted this amp isn't very good for outdoor shows or extremely large shows, but isn't that what the miracle of FOH support is?
Click to expand...

Individual volume needs is a difficult issue to discuss. So much has to do with technique and tone goal, and of course, context. I've played gigs with a little GK 112 micro combo with no problem, and TOTALLY ran out of headroom with an Eden 410XLT x 2 and a WT800.

It depends... do you slap? do you need it totally, completely clean, do you like a huge low end or is a midrange burp your thing. Are you an 'old flatwound' player, are a 'got to have new stainless steel roundwounds.

All of these things (along with both the front of house support or not, and even as important, if you have a separate monitor mix when you have front of house support, along with the size of stage you have to cover with backline) can all make a huge difference.

Finally, speaker SPL can make a 100 watt amp sound like 500 and a 1000 watt amp sound like 200.

It all depends.. there is no right or wrong answer IMO.
 
#17
Well, I will say that guys using way too much rig and turning up too loud negativel affect me by causing the bass cabinet/amplifier companies to focus on the wrong things because they're marketable ;)

Also, they affect me by forcing me to wear earplugs in clubs, and they affect me by making their singer sound like crap by washing him out in stage volume.

It's not a "if it works for you great" type of scenario. Too much stage volume makes you sound like crap.

If you're using a big rig for visual effect or dynamic range that's another thing; some guys with huge rigs can keep themselves in check volume-wise. But all too often I go into a club and see a band and their bass player or guitar players or whoever are bleeding heavily into vocal mics and you can't hear vocals.
 
#18
rpsands said:
Well, I will say that guys using way too much rig and turning up too loud negativel affect me by causing the bass cabinet/amplifier companies to focus on the wrong things because they're marketable ;)

Also, they affect me by forcing me to wear earplugs in clubs, and they affect me by making their singer sound like crap by washing him out in stage volume.

It's not a "if it works for you great" type of scenario. Too much stage volume makes you sound like crap.
Click to expand...

In a way it still is a "if it works for you secenario" because:

If it negatively impacts performance because the reasons you stated, EVENTUALLY they will figure it out by being fired, band not being asked back to club, club owner/soundman/customer complaints, etc. It may take a while, but eventually they will "get it"

Flipside of the coin is that someone with too small of a rig will also eventually figure it out after blowing amps and cabs from always maxing it trying to be heard, complaints from band members, etc.

Unless EVERY bass player played in an identicle situation, playing the same music, in the same size club, the same tone, same musicians using the same equipment, etc. - There is no one correct solution or formula.
 
#19
rpsands said:
Also, they affect me by forcing me to wear earplugs in clubs, and they affect me by making their singer sound like crap by washing him out in stage volume.

It's not a "if it works for you great" type of scenario. Too much stage volume makes you sound like crap.

If you're using a big rig for visual effect or dynamic range that's another thing; some guys with huge rigs can keep themselves in check volume-wise. But all too often I go into a club and see a band and their bass player or guitar players or whoever are bleeding heavily into vocal mics and you can't hear vocals.
Click to expand...

+1!! Too much stage volume = a crappy FOH mix.
 

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