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What Makes This Song Great (Toto Content)

#41
More from Lukather's book-
Most probably know Lukather played guitar & bass on "Beat It" (EVH takes the iconic solo).
If you had the LP, if you read the liner notes, etc.
I knew Lukather played on some stuff by The Tubes (David Foster-era)...didn't know he played guitar & bass on "Talk To Ya Later".
Apparently, some guys in The Tubes did not want to play on something they did not write.
 
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#42
LBS-bass said:
I hear ya. I didn't like this band when they were in the charts because it all seemed too vanilla and over produced for me, and I don't like soft rock very much. That said, I have come to respect the abilities that all these players brought to the table, even if I didn't much like the genre.
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I agree about respecting abilities, but I have a problem when people try to justify an argument that a song is "good" just because the players have chops. Polishing a turd, sewing a silk purse on a hog's a$$, whatever metaphor you want to use, lol. I've also never been one to get behind the hipster revisitation of much of this stuff (Yacht Rock, etc.). To me, if it sucked in the 80s, it still sucks. As for me, in the 80's I was listening to punk rock, and I am often found doing so now.

EDIT: I will concede that Rosanna is a better song than Africa.
 
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#43
To me they were always overproduced, over "sweetened," and a little too self-conscious for me to like them unreservedly.

I thought the opening of Roseanna - especially the chord choices and voicing - was absolutely brilliant. Then something bad happened. Superfluous horn stabs, a jazzy riff that didn't really fit the vibe or lyrics, and sounded like it was tacked on with a hot glue gun…talk about gunking up what could have been a truly classic rock song.

Same thing with Africa. Superb start even if a little too busy in places. Then…it happens again…

To me, the mark of a true master artist is knowing when to put down their pen, paintbrush, or chisel and say: "It's done." To keep "tweaking" (boy do I ever hate the word "tweak") after the fact tends to muddy up the final result.
 
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#44
Here's the kicker.........those songs were great songs. If you didn't like them....cool but sales and popularity say different. Everyone has their own tastes. As I mentioned, these guys weren't even on my radar until I started playing in pop music bands. You see songs in a whole new light. I never played pop until I moved to VA. Was straight R&B and Funk.
 
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#45
JimK said:
More from Lukather's book-
Most probably know Lukather played guitar & bass on "Beat It" (EVH takes the iconic solo).
If you had the LP, if you read the liner notes, etc.
I knew Lukather played on some stuff by The Tubes (David Foster-era)...didn't know he played guitar & bass on "Talk To Ya Later".
Apparently, some guys in The Tubes did not want to play on something they did not write.
Click to expand...
More like Foster didn't want them playing on it.
 
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#46
DWBass said:
Here's the kicker.........those songs were great songs. If you didn't like them....cool but sales and popularity say different. Everyone has their own tastes. As I mentioned, these guys weren't even on my radar until I started playing in pop music bands. You see songs in a whole new light. I never played pop until I moved to VA. Was straight R&B and Funk.
Click to expand...

They certainly sold well. And for as much as I dislike soft rock, I am the biggest Steely Dan fan on the planet (Jeff Porcaro being a big part of thier sound), so I guess I dislike soft rock but I love a little jazzy edginess? I don't know. Not to digress, but I've said before that Fagen would have descended into Kenny G territory if he hadn't had Walter's edginess to prop him up.

I'm currently in an originals band that was advertised to me when they answered my Craigslist ad as "Yacht Rock." I almost didn't bother listening to their Soundcloud tracks but I ended up connecting with them and my take is that it's less yacht rock and more pop-oriented originals with a decidedly indie edge. Which I like. It doesn't take too much of a detour from commercialized overproduction to keep me happy, I guess.
 
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#48
LBS-bass said:
I hear ya. I didn't like this band when they were in the charts because it all seemed too vanilla and over produced for me, and I don't like soft rock very much. That said, I have come to respect the abilities that all these players brought to the table, even if I didn't much like the genre.
Click to expand...
I agree, a bit too polished for my taste. But then I saw them live on the bill with Dave Mason and Graham Nash ant they were great. Still never bought an albumn though
 
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#52
I wasn't a fan per se but my ex got tickets for them live at the Universal Ampetheater just after Rosanna began to dominate LAs airwaves.. I was blown away by how good these guys were, Steve Luthiker instantly became a favorite guitarist. I agree their recordings were over produced, so much stuff was in the 80', something akin to Spectors "Wall of Sound" but live....amazing!
 
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#53
Great thread! Nice to hear about awesome tunes and how they're built, love it!
I got into Toto in my late teens. The lyrics can be cringe inducing but the music and production were inspirational and educational for me. I still draw on it.
Some of my favourite Toto songs were not even Toto songs. George Benson "Lady Love Me", MJ "Human Nature", all written and played by Toto guys.
We play "Africa" in clubs. Everyone goes nuts. It's an anthem, lol! Fun to sing, too.
 
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#54
DWBass said:
Here's the kicker.........those songs were great songs. If you didn't like them....cool but sales and popularity say different.
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That doesn't follow.

Just because something is popular doesn't mean it's good. And just because something is good doesn't automatically mean it's great.

And just because you can find legitimate fault with something doesn't mean you don't like it at all. Gotta beware of falling into that "excluded middle" fallacy. Few things in life are completely black and white choices or opinions.
 
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#57
Just because something is popular doesn't mean it's good. And just because something is good doesn't automatically mean it's great.
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Why do folks keep saying this?? If certain music doesn't appeal to you, that's cool! But let's stop being snobs to music you don't dig when many others obviously enjoy it. Certain music doesn't appeal to me but I'll never say it isn't good. I just don't dig blanket statements. You don't like it. I get it. It doesn't appeal to you. I get it. Deeming it 'not good' I don't get. Same as a guy in another thread who deems those that don't read music are not musicians. Bull poopy!
 
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#58
I just saw Toto a few weeks ago. Did the VIP thing & got to go to the sound check & do the meet & greet with the original members. As we walked in on the sound check Steve Lukather started playing a Jethro Tull riff. Before we know it, they're all jamming on Aqualung. Cool! One guy asked Luke, who is someone he'd like to work with since he's worked with so many people. He mentioned Peter Gabriel. The guys were friendly taking pictures with us & the show was great. Oh yeah, and the bass was awesome sounding.
 
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#60
DWBass said:
Why do folks keep saying this?? If certain music doesn't appeal to you, that's cool! But let's stop being snobs to music you don't dig when many others obviously enjoy it. Certain music doesn't appeal to me but I'll never say it isn't good. I just don't dig blanket statements. You don't like it. I get it. It doesn't appeal to you. I get it. Deeming it 'not good' I don't get. Same as a guy in another thread who deems those that don't read music are not musicians. Bull poopy!
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I don't think what he said supports this critique. He said that just because something is popular doesn't make it good. This is a true statement. He did not say it isn't good - that's a subjective opinion as you acknowledge, perhaps that is his opinion, but he never said it was a universal truth. If you like it, fine, but don't rely on its popularity as evidence that it's universally good.
 

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