Double Bass Plain gut E

[swingingoodtime]

Hi all,

So, I've finally gotten around to putting a plain Emerson E & A on my bass and am now going through that angsty stage of waiting until they stretch up a bit & improve in tone. It's only been a couple of days, so they're still thuddy & undefined and although the A may hold promise (sounds ok albeit a bit quiter & woolier than the very broken-in D & G), the E scares the crap out of me; it's 4mm thick and has far less volume & there are virtually no overtones to speak of.

Has anyone persisted with a plain E and, if so: For how long and is it worth it? What's been good & bad? How thick is yours? Or is the general consensus that they never really improve & therefore to dump it? What did they do in the old days before steel strings?

Thanks heaps!

PS: I did do a thread search, but found little on this. I'll admit to giving up before my head exploded from trying to read all the threads on guts, though...

 

[HateyMcAmp]

In the old days I believe it was wound gut E and A, plain D and G. I had a really nice, really expensive Gamut Pistoy A, and even that string was slow to respond and lacking in midrange. Pretty sweet for bluegrass, oldtime, and slappity stuff but unfun when you wanted to get past the 4th position.

Two strings I tried that worked well with an otherwise plain gut set were Garbo light E and Innovation 140B Solo F#. I thought the Innovation matched better with the plain A, but the Garbo Lights were nice as an E+A combo . I do arco, so I never tried any nylon wrap.

I'm under the impression a plain gut E is pretty much for slap and slap alone, or through an amp where acoustic volume is less of a consideration.

 

[eerbrev]

i say you stick with it, if only so I can find out what your results are!

 

[RichardL]

I tried the Gamut Pistoy A, heavy +, for a few months. It never did get much better, though it remained in tune better. I switched it out for a wound Chorda A and I'm happier with the sound for bluegrass and oldtime music. Those fat strings sure bring out the comments and questions though!

 

[Ruuumble]

Great thread! I've got plain gut E and it is huuuugggeee! It measures 4mm thick as well. Personally I really love it- though I agree it is not for everyone. If you require precision or speed or if you play acoustically it can be a pain in the rear. On my '59 Kay the action where the neck meets the body is 30mm+. I refer to it as 'dribbling a basketball'. But it is the string I have to tune the least (I know I know insert the anti- plain e joke here "yes b/c you can't hear it!). But I think it really shines when amplified and not with your bedroom amp- more power=more better. It really thumps and with the drummer really enhances the big beat! Obviously i'm doin like roots music - rockabilly / country/ blues etc - Anyway here is a vote for......

 

[john allemond]

I had JayB's Pistoy plain A for awhile and wish Id kept it. As for the plain E, I tried a Global for about 3 days and took it off, though if I had a 3rd bass I could dedicate to plain gut madness I would stick with it. With only one bass it would be hard to stick it out.

As an aside, I do a duet gig with an alto player, and when I had the Pistoy plain A on, I used a condenser mic on gigs and the A was beautiful . But thats a special application.

Swingin', if you only have one bass the plain E would be tough to deal with, day in, day out in different settings. John

 

[swingingoodtime]

Thanks for all your replies, folks; much appreciated! I'm fortunate that I'm not gigging so frequently that I don't have the luxury of a little time to experiment (I'm not fortunate in that if I were to get a second bass to try these, the wife would soon have herself a new coin purse and I'd have to re-chart all my tunes to female keys...! ).

Although they play well, the temperamentality of wound guts under temperature/humidity changes drives me nuts; I'll detune at least a whole step if not more over the course of an evening gig, and I once had them change pitch over the course of one song (!!) when I was playing in a pub. I had a hot spotlight shining on the back of the bass & a cold draught coming up through the sill of the cellar door that I was standing on hitting the bottom/front. The plains withstood this relatively well, but the wounds just wigged out. As such, although they're a fallback, I'm going to try & persist with this set up for a while.

Actually, they're sounding a little better today (A moreso than E). It's quite interesting; the strings initially went on after a short soak in almond oil; only about 30 mins worth, in hindsight not long enough. They were both pretty dead sounding, so I then gave them an in-situ soaking with the oil (wrapped a rag around the strings where they met the bridge, and trickled oil down the strings from the top, ensuring a full & generous coating. Now they're a little more translucent looking. I did that a few times at roughly 12 hr intervals (before & after work) and then, 12 hrs after the last soaking, wiped them thoroughly clean to remove the stickiness. A day later and they're feeling drier, but as a result, they also sound a bit less flabby and have a little more ring to them; even the E (although it's still pretty quiet and it doesn't really sing but there are definitely more overtones present now). I'm thinking that perhaps the inner fibres are more supple, but the outer surface is less damped as it dry out, giving the extra ringiness.

Whatever is happening, it's an encouraging step in the right direction. I agree, however, that these will never be a great proposition for fast, complex playing.

Please keep the feedback on your experiences coming; I'll provide updates as they come.

Ciao!

 

[eerbrev]

+ Eerbrev is following this

this is fascinating. I love learning about peoples experience with stuff that's not, or no longer is, the norm. Keep us posted!

eerbrev

 

[Ruuumble]

@swingingoodtime - that's a great point - I forgot to mention - and it is mandatory- I live in Phoenix - hot and dry needless to say - i have to give the strings almond oil bath similar to the manner you described (wrapping oil soaked rag). I prolly do it every other week or so. When the strings lose the translucence, is when they start having compromised tone, and are more temperamental tuning etc. I make sure to get the bend and knot at the tailpiece as well as the turns at the turning pegs. Amazing thing gut strings! My friend has a 'varnish' on his strings that require less frequent oil baths but that is all I know about that.......

 

[Ruuumble]

BTW - 100% pure refined almond oil is available at Sprouts ( any health food store) for $7 for 8 fl oz. Best stuff for gut strings - not the overpriced stuff from unamed DB shops! Although you must be secure in your manhood to enter such a store and ask "ahhh eeehhhmmm where is your 100% pure almond oil"!!

 

[KStewart]

Although you must be secure in your manhood to enter such a store and ask "ahhh eeehhhmmm where is your 100% pure almond oil"!!

Almost as secure to say "Thanks for the tip, buddy!"

No, really, thanks!


ps... I've been playing plain gut E strings for 6 years now exclusively on my personal basses. Haven't tried any of the super fancy expensive ones yet, but my Efrano's have lasted me many many years of happy playing and nice tone. Love the big E!

 

[swingingoodtime]

Almost as secure to say "Thanks for the tip, buddy!"

No, really, thanks!


ps... I've been playing plain gut E strings for 6 years now exclusively on my personal basses. Haven't tried any of the super fancy expensive ones yet, but my Efrano's have lasted me many many years of happy playing and nice tone. Love the big E!

Cool! Nice to hear from someone with real mileage on the clock. Can you please advise; does the tone of the E ever improve to the point where you're getting decent volume, overtones & sustain? Or does it largely remain thuddy & quiet? And what style have you been using it for, please?

Thanks heaps!

 

[KStewart]

Can you please advise; does the tone of the E ever improve to the point where you're getting decent volume, overtones & sustain? Or does it largely remain thuddy & quiet? And what style having you been using it for, please?

Thanks heaps!

Hate to say.... Thuddy and quiet. They do seem to liven up a bit from when they are new, but it doesn't magically turn into a wrapped sounding string, I'm not gonna lie. Also, you won't notice how good it sounds until you have someone (preferably another bassist) else play your bass so you can step out and hear how well they actually project. Or, try a recording with your phone or something.... you will hopefully be surprised by how loud it does project in relation to the other strings.

The styles I mainly play are western swing, rockabilly, bluegrass, hot jazz and country. Very roots and ol' timey oriented music.

I did just finish a theater gig where I was playing everything from Wings to Sheryl Crow songs at the Getty Villa theater in Malibu, CA behind a huge singing/acting ensemble. I was playing through my tiny 12" combo amp (running DI into the house system), through my Underwood pickup and the plain E/A gut strings on my upright sounded better and fatter than my electric bass did on the same gig.

 

[HateyMcAmp]

I tried the Gamut Pistoy A, heavy +, for a few months. It never did get much better, though it remained in tune better. I switched it out for a wound Chorda A and I'm happier with the sound for bluegrass and oldtime music. Those fat strings sure bring out the comments and questions though!

Dude, I can't even imagine. Mine was a light, and it was still novelty-huge. I think the light gauge did get a little more clear after a couple of months, although it was never going to respond quick or have a note after C#. Still, for a bluegrass gut rig, how often do you chose the Eb on the A as opposed to the D? Maybe you should try one (they show up used time to time) and use that Heavy+ as the E string

These are things I want others to experiment with because I'm terrified to

 

[Ruuumble]

Almost as secure to say "Thanks for the tip, buddy!"

No, really, thanks!

ps... I've been playing plain gut E strings for 6 years now exclusively on my personal basses. Haven't tried any of the super fancy expensive ones yet, but my Efrano's have lasted me many many years of happy playing and nice tone. Love the big E!

Your welcome ...no really......your welcome

 

[swingingoodtime]

Although you must be secure in your manhood to enter such a store and ask "ahhh eeehhhmmm where is your 100% pure almond oil"!!

Hah; not as much as having to ask where the ladies' unmentionables are at the chemist!

(Hey, I was on an errand, ok...?)

@swingingoodtime - that's a great point - I forgot to mention - and it is mandatory- I live in Phoenix - hot and dry needless to say - i have to give the strings almond oil bath similar to the manner you described (wrapping oil soaked rag). I prolly do it every other week or so. When the strings lose the translucence, is when they start having compromised tone, and are more temperamental tuning etc. I make sure to get the bend and knot at the tailpiece as well as the turns at the turning pegs. Amazing thing gut strings! My friend has a 'varnish' on his strings that require less frequent oil baths but that is all I know about that.......

On that note, I've decided to pull the E & A off & give them the proper oil bath that I should have to begin with; they’re currently soaking in some zip-lock bags and will have had about 12 hours worth by the time I get home from work. I must say that the strings were continuing to improve as described above, but the fact that I’d not soaked them properly kept me wondering if I’d impeded their ability to improve. They’d also decreased in diameter too; the E had dropped from 4.1 (brand new) to 3.9mm & the A from 3.2 to 3.0mm, so we’ll see how they go when they're properly supple & back on the bass…

Unfortunately (sort of), I’ve had a gig called for this Sunday, so I may need to pull them off temporarily for the gig if they’re not up to scratch. However, I'm encouraged by KStewart's comments on them sounding better to the audience than is apparent on top of the instrument, so we'll see how we go. Besides, I just picked up an AT ATM350 mic for a song & am keen to give that a whirl with the full gut complement...

Stay tuned! (Which is what I tend to say to my wound E & A all the time&#8230

 

[eerbrev]

... Also, you won't notice how good it sounds until you have someone (preferably another bassist) else play your bass so you can step out and hear how well they actually project. Or, try a recording with your phone or something.... you will hopefully be surprised by how loud it does project in relation to the other strings.

This is true with so many bass related things. longer frequency lengths mean that close to the instrument sounds wimpy, but 20+ feet away it sounds like a million bucks, because it takes that far for the wave to cycle through.

eerbrev

 

[swingingoodtime]

OK, an update: I fitted the strings last night after about 20 hrs in the almond oil. They were surprisingly less supple than I thought they would be; they still retained a reasonable degree of stiffness. They certainly weren’t like the string that appears on the Upton Bass video for tying knots (although that that probably wasn’t an E or A). I guess my wet noodle expectations were a bit unrealistic…

Anyhoo, after wiping them down, I popped them on; used plenty of graphite powder on the nut & bridge slots, as well as rubbed into the undersides of the strings around those points; super slick! Tuned them to pitch; they were as dull as I expected them to be fresh out of the oil (the 'sogginess' of which I suspect has a damping effect). I tuned them up a whole two steps and left them to stretch overnight. This morning, they’d dropped somewhat; the E was now at F# & the A was at B. So I’ve tuned them back up to the two step gap to keep the tension on them until the stretching stabilizes. Interestingly, the 4mm E sounds really good up at G; plenty of ring & overtones; maybe it could make for a great A string! I’m hoping that as they thin out under tension (which should be easier to achieve after the soaking) and dry out some more, they’ll pick some more of those characteristics up at pitch.

More news as it happens…

 

[swingingoodtime]

OK: The strings have had a chance to stablise & dry out a little (I've been wiping them down regularly to remove the excess oil). I'm happy to say that they're shaping up nicely. The A is pretty darn good, and the E, although certainly quieter than a steel string, is starting to behave more like a string should. And, boy! Does it go DEEEEEP! The A almost blends completely with the D & G; not quite as sharp on the attack of a note, but I'm anticipating this will improve as it dries out further. The E has more ring than before; it's far less of a dull thuddy string than when it went on. Seems like the big soak was the correct thing to do.

They've not thinned out any further, incidentally.

However, I had to make some adjustments to the bass to accommodate these new strings correctly:

1) I've had to raise the string height considerably to allow the E to vibrate without buzzing; EADG heights are 16, 15, 13 & 11mm respectively . Even now, the E buzzes slightly when not in open position, so I think a proper fb dress is required at some point (it's not too bad, though). To raise them that high, I had to fit lifters to the tops of my bass feet (under the adjusters).

2) I also had a buzzing E at the nut; the string was rattling in the fb side of the nut. That was cured by filing more of a curvature (depth-wise) into the slot on the pegbox side of the nut; this was because the string is so thick that when it passed over the flat nut slot, the sharp bend that was introduced on the peg-box side caused the string to arch up on the fb side, lifting it slightly up so that it could rattle around in the slot. Confused? Never mind, I did a diagram (attached).

3) I also had to adjust the sound post to give the new strings a little more oomph; the balance across all four strings is much better now.

Other thoughts/caveats:
Arco is pretty difficult on such a thick string as the E; it moves SO much and takes a fair bit of effort & care to get it going & keep good tone. Both the E & A are a bit scratchy sounding, but perhaps I'll sort that out as I get used to bowing them & using the right amount of rosin.

Playing the new string heights is pretty interesting, too; whereas before I could tap my fingertips on to the fb as a reference & for stability just before pulling the note, I can't do that as easily as it's now much further away; I'm finding that I need to 'float' my right hand more, which is a challenge at this point as it uses more muscles to stablise the arm. So my pizz technique will need to change to adapt too.

However:
The tone is great and they're easy to play; although there's work in using the E, it's still fun. And (hopefully) none of the tuning issues that come with wound guts!

I've not tried them with a pickup yet, but I'll be miking the bass up with my newly acquired AT ATM350 mic (possibly blended with a pickup), so we'll see how that goes. The acid test will be the gig tomorrow (ooooooh!).

So, the $64K question; was it worth it? So far, it seems, yes. Been a lot of fun just putting them on, at any rate!

 

[timobee4]

I

OK, an update: I fitted the strings last night after about 20 hrs in the almond oil.

I tuned them up a whole two steps and left them to stretch overnight. This morning, they’d dropped somewhat; the E was now at F# & the A was at B. So I’ve tuned them back up to the two step gap to keep the tension on them until the stretching stabilizes.

I am sure you meant to say that you tuned up two whole step not whole two step! By the way this is a fascinating thread, I use Gamuts when gut sound required but used many different brands of gut strings in the past 30 years and never thought or heard of soaking stings in oil for 20 hours let alone winding it up two whole steps to stretch them! Once I wiped my strings but could never bow those strings again, a friend stretched my D string up about two whole step and it Never sounded and felt right after, so I don't think I will ever try either methods but sure makes interesting reading!