Camera advice please.....

[two fingers]

Short version:
The wife and I are looking to get a decent DSLR camera. I prefer something that can swap lenses. Our budget for a bundle package is around $600 but could inch up to 7 or 8 for the right one. Black Friday or Cyber Monday deals are fine by me.


Long version:
History
I have some experience with SLR manual cameras. I understand many of the settings. But, honestly, I will probably use a lot of the automatic settings most of the time. What I will be photographing is mostly my kids, some nature stuff, and the occasional pro baseball game. The camera does NOT need to be a pro level piece. We are not going to spend over a grand for the get started package.

I would like the option to do burst shots.
I would like to be able to buy additional lenses.
It would be nice if the package came with a couple of starter lenses but that's not a deal breaker.
I don't care about the quality of the bag or filters and such. I can get that stuff as I go along.
Size doesn't matter to me. I usually carry a backpack whenever we are walking through a zoo or hiking. So transport on long days is no big deal.
I am not married to any brand.
I am big into quality optics. Even if the starter lenses aren't amazing, I would like the option to get really nice lenses later on so a standard format of lens locking system would probably be best.


Any advice would be appreciated. We will probably get something in the next few days.

Thank you!

 

[blastoff99]

If you haven't already, take a look at Trey Ratcliiff's blog (Stuck in Customs).

He was a huge Nikon full-frame DSLR guy, but has converted mostly to "four thirds" format. I don't know all the details, but it was intriguing, and it might be something to consider before you make the jump.

 

[cleary]

I'll second blastoff's suggestion, and recommend looking into the "mirrorless compact" market.

They're smaller, featureful, convenient and excellent performers. If you can find an Olympus OM-D EM5 on the secondhand market, I would be snapping that up without a second thought.

At a personal level, I own a Nikon D700 (full frame dslr) with a range of good quality lens' (17-35mm f/2.8, 50mm f/1.8, 70-200 f/2.8). This kit gives excellent results, but is so big and unwieldy that I rarely bring it with me "on a whim".

What do I grab 4/5 times? Nikon J1 mirrorless with either a 10mm f/2.8 or kit 10-30mm.

I would trade both of these for the om-d if the missus would let me

[edit] since you have a previous clue about photography, it's worth noting that these mirrorless compacts have much smaller sensors, which means you need to calculate the equivalent focal length of the lens'. Eg with my J1 nikon, the equivalent focal length of the 10mm lens, is the same as 28mm on my D700 (*2.8). For micro 4/3 sensors, your multiplier is 2 - so a 14mm on the om-d is the same equivalent focal length as 28mm on a full frame (35mm film equivalent) camera.

 

[two fingers]

Already reading up on them. Thanks guys. Keep 'em coming. I am now open to both ideas (DSLR and Micro 4/3).

 

[tplyons]

I have a Canon EOS 20D (5 year old model) that I still carry from time to time when I want more control over my shots, different lenses, or something of the like.

On the other hand, most of my shooting is done with a Canon Powershot G15. This is almost like a mini DSLR without interchangeable lenses. Almost the same level of manual controls and a better sensor than my 20D.

What I'd recommend is taking a look at the Canon Rebel T3i (right in your price range) or T4i (if you can add a few bucks), or the comparable Nikon D5100/D5200. Then look at the Canon EOS-M and Nikon 1 which will both give you interchangeable lenses as well. Then look at the up-level point and shoots like the Canon Powershot G15 or Nikon Coolpix 7700. All three levels of camera would give superior results and plenty of control, as well as auto settings.

Advantage to the DSLR? Those lenses will work on any of the Canon or Nikon range of DSLR's as those mounts have been standardized. The Mirrorless compact cameras require a slightly different mount, so there aren't as many lenses available, and they won't be usable on DSLR's should you upgrade in the future.

In my opinion? Don't spend too much on the body (I'd be inclined to go with a T3i and spend the rest on your lenses... the reason I'm still using my 8.0MP EOS 20D, is I can still get perfectly crisp 8x10's out of it... unless you're doing professional work or blowing things up larger than an 8x10, the additional sensor space won't do you a ton of good)

 

[Jeff K]

I can't help you with camera advice. I just wanted to commend you for actually spelling "advice" correctly. So many people seem to write "advise" when they mean "advice" (and vice versa). One of my pet peeves, so thank you for getting it right!!

 

[macrocheesium]

I would go with a full-sized DSLR, personally. I love having the control over my shots and you'll be able to use the full selection of lenses and accessories, should you ever decide to get them. I like Canons better, butt you can't go wrong with Nikon either. Those two are generally regarded as the best, so I would narrow the decision down to those 2.

 

[two fingers]

I can't help you with camera advice. I just wanted to commend you for actually spelling "advice" correctly. So many people seem to write "advise" when they mean "advice" (and vice versa). One of my pet peeves, so thank you for getting it right!!

You're welcome. Although I am not perfect by any standard, I am a bit of a spelling/grammar Nazi myself.

Again, thanks to all for the adviCe.

 

[cleary]

I would go with a full-sized DSLR, personally. I love having the control over my shots...

Most mirror less options give you as much control as any slr.
The m43 format is standard too. You can use any brand lens' that support the format, on any m43 body, and there are adapters for just about any other lens brand.
If you take either the Nikon or the canon route, you are potentially limiting your lens choice more than the m43 route.

 

[Bassamatic]

Please go to Ken Rockwell's site - Invalid Link Removed tons of great photo advice and reviews from a top working professional. Read all of it!

DON'T be taken in by the megapixel myth. Ken explains why more than 6 MP or so is only a marketing ploy unless you are a working pro. (I published a travel landscape calendar made with a 6 MP camera). Just FYI - a standard 4x6 print has less than 1 MP.

Also - DON'T be swayed by the "Black Friday" sales unless you really know what you want. Many of the advertised bargains are not really such bargains, and will be around for a while.

Check out the cameras, see how they feel and check all the reviews you can find online. Try to get a good wide to tele zoom instead of multiple lenses. This is a huge PITA and you really don't want to allow dust to get in on your digital sensor. IMO the 18-55mm standard lenses sold on most cameras are useless - they don't go to a useful tele length. Spend a little more and get something like an 18-135 or 18-200 that you can leave on.

Good Luck

 

[mellowinman]

What I'd recommend is taking a look at the Canon Rebel T3i (right in your price range)

That is good advice.

 

[two fingers]

I would trade both of these for the om-d if the missus would let me

The price is more than I was hoping to spend (depending on the package almost twice as much) but the OM-D EM-5 looks to be a hot little camera. And by most reviews the frame is just built better (dust proof, splash proof, etc) than the competitors. I am going to scout out the deals and keep researching between M43 and DSLR formats. But this is getting kind of interesting.

Thanks to all so far!

 

[blastoff99]

I should have mentioned that I own a Canon T3i and am happy enough with it - but often wonder if I shouldn't have delayed my purchase a little and bought a 4/3rds camera instead. For my purposes, I'm not sure the DSLR really is an advantage.

BTW, tplyons wasn't quite clear: although you can use many Canon lenses on, say, a T3i (or other "crop sensor" camera), you can't use ALL Canon lenses on it. Although some lenses are interchangeable between the crop sensor and full frame DSLRs, some are not - there are some ONLY for full frame, and also some ONLY for crop sensor.

I was looking at my photo wall this morning. These are shots I've taken over the past few years and have liked a lot, had printed (some on metal), and hung up for my small world to see. I took a quick inventory, and discovered that the majority of them were taken with... my point-and-shoot camera. Go figure.

 

[Dave W]

I'm a Canon guy myself, so I'll 3rd the suggestion for a T3i (or T4i or T5i depending on what deals you can find now). B&H has a deal on the T3i with 18-55 IS II kit lens right now for under $600. Nikon makes great cameras and lenses as well, but I'm not as familiar with their stuff.

With both Canon or Nikon you'll have a huge range of killer glass to choose from. Since you mention you want good lenses, Canon has a relatively "affordable" range of f/4 L series glass as well as many other awesome lenses that cover just about anything you can think of.

BTW, tplyons wasn't quite clear: although you can use many Canon lenses on, say, a T3i (or other "crop sensor" camera), you can't use ALL Canon lenses on it. Although some lenses are interchangeable between the crop sensor and full frame DSLRs, some are not - there are some ONLY for full frame, and also some ONLY for crop sensor.

In the world of Canon:
EF lenses with work on both full frame & crop bodies.
EF-S lenses will ONLY work on crop bodies.

You'll probably only be looking at crop bodies in this price range so it won't really matter.
You've got 3rd party lenses too from Sigma, Tamron, Tokina, and a few others. I don't know their lens mount system all that well so I can't comment.

 

[blastoff99]

In the world of Canon:
EF lenses with work on both full frame & crop bodies.
EF-S lenses will ONLY work on crop bodies.

Isn't the L stuff for FF only?

Just tryin' to learn a little here, not derail the OP.

 

[Dave W]

Isn't the L stuff for FF only?

Just tryin' to learn a little here, not derail the OP.

Nope, it's all EF mount so it'll work on a crop body. It'll also go on the EOS-M (EF-M mount) with an adapter.

I've got a 135L mounted on my 60D right now, it's a great lens!

 

[i_got_a_mohawk]

Compact systems with interchangeable lenses are certainly coming along and look pretty sweet!

If you want to go for a full DSLR, my opinion would be to stick to Canon or Nikon. I prefer Canon personally, but they are the two biggest brands, you've got a much larger selection of manufacturer and 3rd party lenses, plus they'll often work perfectly fine with relatively older lenses (for instance, Canon have been using their EF mount for ages).

The mount type is the connection between the lens and the camera. As Bassgod points out, it's worth noting what mount you are getting. Even though I have a camera which takes the EF-S mount, I try and stick to EF mount lenses, simply so I can transfer them if (when) I get a better camera.

They should all do burst shooting, they'll do this at different rates depending on the camera.

There'll be bundles out there with a few starter lenses.

Accessories, especially with Canon and Nikon and widespread and covering pretty much every price point there is.

Canon and Nikon both make top range (and top price) glass too, so the sky is the limits in terms of quality. Also, you'll probably be surprised at just how good, given the price, the starter lenses are.

Please go to Ken Rockwell's site - Invalid Link Removed tons of great photo advice and reviews from a top working professional. Read all of it!

DON'T be taken in by the megapixel myth. Ken explains why more than 6 MP or so is only a marketing ploy unless you are a working pro. (I published a travel landscape calendar made with a 6 MP camera). Just FYI - a standard 4x6 print has less than 1 MP.

Also - DON'T be swayed by the "Black Friday" sales unless you really know what you want. Many of the advertised bargains are not really such bargains, and will be around for a while.

Check out the cameras, see how they feel and check all the reviews you can find online. Try to get a good wide to tele zoom instead of multiple lenses. This is a huge PITA and you really don't want to allow dust to get in on your digital sensor. IMO the 18-55mm standard lenses sold on most cameras are useless - they don't go to a useful tele length. Spend a little more and get something like an 18-135 or 18-200 that you can leave on.

Good Luck

I agree with most of this, however I do find Ken to be a bit of a blowhard at times.

The megapixel myth is certainly true, but the general consumer thinks bigger is better and a bigger number is easier to sell! I'm not so sure on the point about using less that 1MP for a standard 6x4. 1MP at 1.5:1 is ~1200x800, so you'd be printing at 200 DPI, but 300 DPI is generally the standard (so 1800x1200), which would be slightly over 2MP. Either way, the general point does stand that a 20MP camera is going to be massive overkill for most and simply load your memory card quicker!

 

[Dave W]

Ken was also a diehard Nikon guy that "dealt" with having to use Canon so he could write reviews on it. Somewhere along the line he seems to have flipped now using Canon more than Nikon. I like reading his stuff but you certainly have to filter some of what he's saying.

I also agree with trying to stick to EF lenses. If you ever decide to upgrade to a FF camera you'll be fine with EF lenses. If you have a bunch of EF-S lenses you wouldn't be able to use them. However, the 17-55mm f/2.8 EF-S is REALLY nice and it's going for not a lot of money these days. When I bought mine is was $1100...now it's down in the $700 range. It's been said that it's L series quality glass without the weather sealing is extreme build of an L lens.

You can really go nuts with all of this stuff. There is so much out there and so much to learn that it can get overwhelming. That's another reason why I think it's easier to stick with Canon or Nikon. You don't have to do ALL the research right now for stuff you may want 10 years down the road, because if it's worth doing in the photography world both of them will be doing it.

If anybody is looking for a really nice P&S, B&H has the Canon S110 for $250! It's basically a full manual P&S camera. They've also got a nice deal on the Canon G15.

 

[two fingers]

Isn't the L stuff for FF only?

Just tryin' to learn a little here, not derail the OP.

No such thing as a derail as far as I'm concerned. Any question you ask is something I'm learning right along with you. I realize there is a sea of information out there to sift through and I'm trying to keep an open mind because I am fully aware of my limitations with regard to camera know how. So fear not! Ask away! If this turns into a full-on camera/lens overview discussion I'm fine with that. The more I learn the better. Thanks!

 

[Tegzsa]

I have a Nikon D7000, which I enjoy very much. Now that there is a D7100, the prices should be coming down.

I think it's a better bet than the smaller Nikons (D5200 etc) because you can use all of the older (cheaper and secondhand) autofocus lenses that require the camera to have a built-in autofocus motor. For example, my current favourite is a 20mm f2.8.