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Double Bass Mic/Full Circle comparisons for live sound

Chris Fitzgerald

Chris Fitzgerald

Student of Life
Staff member
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Gold Supporting Member
Oct 19, 2000
27,572
38,465
Louisville, KY
www.chrisfitzgeraldmusic.com
#1
As mentioned in the other mic thread, I've recorded a few solo cuts to compare the sounds of various mics in combination with the Full Circle pickup for live sound applications. While this comparison isn't exactly scientific, it's better than nothing and will perhaps give interested people a general idea about the sound of the mics involved.

Part of the reason that the comparisons are unscientific is that they involve two basses. Both are New Standard LaScala basses strung with Dominants, but one is a hybrid and one is a ply. Both are great sounding basses, and later I'll post some soundclips of each in a trio setting that was recorded in the same room with the same guys and with the same settings.

For the purposes of this test, the idea was to compare the signals being sent to an onstage amp (I also send the mixed signal to the house through the DI, but that's another story). For this reason, each signal, whether it be a mic signal or a pickup signal, was routed through my onstage signal path: The amp is an Acoustic Image Focus 2R, series III. The Full Circle signal is going through channel 1, and is EQ'd the way I usually set it for live sound, with the HP filter set at 70 Hz. The mic signal goes through channel 2, set flat except for the same HP filter. The signals were routed out of the effects sends and into Digital Performer, each on its own track. There were no effects on the DP track except for a light Plate Verb on the master track which I forgot to turn off.

The playing is nothing special, just standards where I play the melody in, 2 feel line, walking line, solo, and melody out. These are all first takes, and all full of clams...they were created to be a reference of the sound of the gear, and were never intended to be great art. Which, all things considered, is a good thing. :D


Anyway, the first three cuts are the tune, "If I Should Lose You" played on the laminate LaScala through the Full Circle and an old SM58 crammed between the afterlength of the strings with the diaphragm positioned about 2" from the top at about a 45-55 degree angle.

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If these links work and there's interest, I'll post the AMT clips later tonight, and add new mics on as I experiment with them. Here goes nothing!

EDIT: Special thanks to Phil Maneri (aka Uncletoad) for hosting the clips, and for putting up with my technical ineptitude while I was trying to upload them. :rollno:
 
#2
Chris,

Thanks for taking the time to record and post these comparisons. i'm sure we'll all find this valuable. I've got a long drive for a gig now, but I will be sure to check this out later tonite.

BG
 
#6
Jmain - thanks for the enthusiastic review. :) I'm wincing over the sketchy intonation on these cuts , but I'm not very objective. Come by and check out the axes if you're ever coming through these parts. How does that old song go..."Torn between two lovers"....Arnold and Wil are doing us all a favor with their work on these things.

Papa - I don't have a digital camera, but if I run into somone on a gig who has one, I'll ask them to snap one and email it to me. Basically, the XLR end of the mic body sticks up through the afterlength between the A and D strings, closer to the bridge than to the tailpiece. There is a single band of shockmount elastic strung between the two bridge legs, and the mic head rests on that. The top of the mic head would touch the underside of the bridge arch, so I've wedged a thick felt washer from a cymbal stand there to absorb vibrations, and the pressure from the elastic pushes it up and holds the whole thing in place. It sounds kind of MacGyver, but it holds in place while playing pretty well. When I find the mic I'll end up using, I'm sure I'll rig up something that doesn't need to be removed in transit.
 
#7
Chris Fitzgerald said:
Here are the tracks with the Full Circle/AMT mix. The tune is "My Romance", and the bass is the hybrid LaScala. The routing and settings of the gear are the same as on the first cut.


CHRIS,

Thanks again for these posts.
The AMT sounds a bit better to my ears, but I think some of that may be due to some of the added richness of the hybrid over the laminated La Scala. Not to make work for ya, but it would interesting to hear the SM58 w/ the Hybrid to compare the 2 different mic set ups w/ the same bass. Nice playing BTW.

BG
Click to expand...
 
#8
Thanks for the clips and nice playing!

How often do you find that a mic is effective in a live setting? I ask because I used to use a mic (first a SM58 and later an AKG C419) myself and found that there was only a small dynamic window just above acoustic volume where a mic was really effective (through an amp - pa is a different story). It was so hit or miss with the mic - sometimes there were feedback problems at any volume, sometimes it sounded great. I recently broke out the mic again to try it out and yes it does have a depth that my pickup (Full Circle) doesn't but I felt I could get within spitting distance using the FS & EQ and much of the depth of the mic would probably be lost on louder gigs.

I have never owned a 2 channel amp so maybe thats the key? It just seems that I'm either playing quiet enough to play acoustic or too loud for the mic to work without needing too much pickup sound. Between feedback issues and the small volume window mics just seem to finicky for a live environment. Please at least partially agree with me so I don't have to upgrade to a 2 channel focus;)
 
#9
Thanks Chris for doing the work and posting the results and to uncle toad for the hosting.
I will reserve comments until I listen to the files on different speakers but I think it would be safe to say that the difference in the two mics when blended with a FC is not as great as I would have imagined. At the very least a bridge mounted SM 58 is a viable option for the financially impaired like myself.

hope you find a camera for us to copy your mounting.

Also I love that tune "If I Should Lose You." You sound great on it! I got out "Bird with Strings" and listened to his live and studio versions on the way to the gig last night.
 
#10
Brian - if I get the chance, I'll slap the 58 on the hybrid and play a cut if I can figure a way to get the AMT capsule out of the way with out removing the whole mount.

Basss - I use a mic every single time I play amplified, almost always mixed with the FC. The pole mounting system makes the amp kind of like a backline mono PA for the bass (see page 6 of the belchfest thread for pics), and the only adjustments that need to be made from room to room are the blend controls and a tiny bit of EQ. In reflective rooms, more pickup is needed, and in dry rooms, you can get away with a lot of mic. Loud drummers also affect the mix as well, as you might imagine.

Univac - so far, I'm a little surprised myself, as I expected the AMT to smoke the 58, and I don't think it does at all. A lot remains to be seen about how the 58 handles higher volume situations, though. Time will tell!

Today I'll be playing a gig with the laminate bass and a Beta57a (owned by the club) mixed with the FC. If it sounds good, I'll likely buy one this week for the home studio. If that happens, I'll be sure to record a cut or two with it now that the whole system is in place.
 
#11
Chris Fitzgerald said:
Brian - if I get the chance, I'll slap the 58 on the hybrid and play a cut if I can figure a way to get the AMT capsule out of the way with out removing the whole mount.

Basss - I use a mic every single time I play amplified, almost always mixed with the FC. The pole mounting system makes the amp kind of like a backline mono PA for the bass (see page 6 of the belchfest thread for pics), and the only adjustments that need to be made from room to room are the blend controls and a tiny bit of EQ. In reflective rooms, more pickup is needed, and in dry rooms, you can get away with a lot of mic. Loud drummers also affect the mix as well, as you might imagine.

Univac - so far, I'm a little surprised myself, as I expected the AMT to smoke the 58, and I don't think it does at all. A lot remains to be seen about how the 58 handles higher volume situations, though. Time will tell!

Today I'll be playing a gig with the laminate bass and a Beta57a (owned by the club) mixed with the FC. If it sounds good, I'll likely buy one this week for the home studio. If that happens, I'll be sure to record a cut or two with it now that the whole system is in place.
Click to expand...

I just played a gig last night with this set up and a loud drummer (this cat is too loud...puts all the other musicians in their screaming range all night long) anyway (FC SM58 Focus III Kolbe 112.) I had to replace my Anima G string with a real wirey sounding spiro and the FC alone sounds real whiny...but with the SM 58 and importantly the HP filter I was able to get a lot of volume out of the mic side without thinning out the sound too much. I think that the 58 has such a thick sound that you can roll off a lot of the bass and still have a decent sound from it...My mounting sucks tho and I had to deal with it slipping a bunch.
Chris how are you mounting it so it does not slip? Are there foam covers for these mics that could help with the mounting?
 
#12
flatback said:
I just played a gig last night with this set up and a loud drummer (this cat is too loud...puts all the other musicians in their screaming range all night long) anyway (FC SM58 Focus III Kolbe 112.) I had to replace my Anima G string with a real wirey sounding spiro and the FC alone sounds real whiny...but with the SM 58 and importantly the HP filter I was able to get a lot of volume out of the mic side without thinning out the sound too much.
Click to expand...
The thing which makes the AMT so usable in a live setting is its supposed minimal bleed (tight pattern, lo-pass filter), particularly from cymbals, not to mention feedback resistance. I find that there is still a fair amount of bleed once the drums get loud, but the real test in this shootout will be how the SM58 fares in these categories, since they don't seem to sound all that different. Flatback, if you made out OK with your loud drummer, then I guess it's promising. The other thing the AMT has going for it of course is that its lightweight and mounts easily. The chintzy cable is a big flaw, however.

Thanks to FitzGearnerd and AuntPhibian for making the results public.
 
#14
T-REX said:
The thing which makes the AMT so usable in a live setting is its supposed minimal bleed (tight pattern, lo-pass filter), particularly from cymbals, not to mention feedback resistance. I find that there is still a fair amount of bleed once the drums get loud, but the real test in this shootout will be how the SM58 fares in these categories, since they don't seem to sound all that different.
Click to expand...

Agreed. I haven't had the chance to do the 58+drums yet. I may do that on Saturday. The thing about the 58 is the amount and thickness of sound it puts out, and the way it dominantes the mix between mic and pickup. It clearly has more high end than the AMT, and therefore more potential for certain kinds of feedback.

The other thing the AMT has going for it of course is that its lightweight and mounts easily. The chintzy cable is a big flaw, however.
Click to expand...

The cable is a serious flaw, and I like the "indestructible" aspect of the handheld dynamics and their cables. Another drawback to the AMT is the absolute need for a specific preamp, and the nearly proprietary cable/connectors that it uses. It's a beautiful thing to take that big heavy mic and cable that you know can't really be hurt and just plug straight into the Focus with a standard XLR cable. It goes without saying that you could of course bring your own outboard EQ or preamp to add to the chain if you want (thus only equaling what the AMT requires you to do)...but it's nice not to HAVE TO do that every night.

I played the gig this afternoon with the FC + a Beta 57a, and it sounded very different than the 58 - more flat overall, with more high end and without the hump in the low mids. I found myself cutting mids and highs but not bass with the 57, but some of that could have been the PA monitor I was using for a speaker...it had a big PA horn and no pad to turn it off. And still, the sound was surprisingly good and very powerful and usable. I'll likely pick one up in the next day or so, and if it doesn't turn out to be "the one", it'll at least be a serviceable studio mic.

A friend took a few pics of the mounting system and promised to email them to me, so I'll post 'em when I get 'em.
 
#15
Hmm, to my ears, the two nicest-sounding ones are the SM58 blended with the FC, and the AMT alone. Something about the AMT mic by itself sounds really nice to me.

For some reason, I just didn't like the sound with the AMT/FC blended. The SM58 seems to mesh better with the piezo tone.
 
#17
mje said:
The first thing that strikes me is how nasal the FC sounds- which says there's a resonance peak in the midrange. Flattened out with a little EQ it would probably sound much better.

The second is how good the old reliable SM58 sounds relative to the AMT- particularly given the price ratio.
Click to expand...
Yea,
I've been playing with this set up all week and the 58 kind of compliments the FC. They don't overlap so much as fill in what the other lacks. The 58 into the focus with the HP on is a really simple yet surprisingly good sound and with a higher volume then on my other mics too. I took some rubber bands and suspended the mic under the bridge, with a couple rounds of tape on the handle so it fits snug in the after length of the strings. Cost nothing and is the least noisy mic mount I've had on my bass. No buzz anywhere. Gotta find some black rubberbands...
 
#18
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I still haven't gotten my emailed pics yet, but that looks remarkably similar to the mounting system I've been describing. Say, is your bass missing an f-hole or something?

MJE BACH said:
The second is how good the old reliable SM58 sounds relative to the AMT- particularly given the price ratio.
Click to expand...

Bingo, and ditto for the Beta 57, which is supercardioid and with a flatter response.
 
#19
Now you guys have me thinkin about a cleaner rubber band mount. I just did a quick experiment with a 2 foot length of black shock cord/elastic cord that I had on an old backpack and one of those plastic toggles that you use to adjust the tightness of such things and it looks like it would work perfectly. I'll post a pic tomorrow, but the trick is to go around the bridge, one turn around the mic, and through the holes in the tailpiece on each side so that the plastic clamp thing sits between the A and D holes on the face of the tailpiece.

Sorry, I was a mechanical engineer in a previous life.
 

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