RANT: going ampless -> why digital? why IR?

[gillento]

(First let me start with stating that I am not a native english speaker)

With the risk of getting flamed:

This is not intended as a digital vs analog rant!

I get why people „are going ampless”. I have been crafting „my sound” using pedals for more than 2 decades. I have done this to not be at the mercy of a certain amp or cab, being able to play on any stage, thu any amp or even without an amp….. all before ever using IEM.
I have done this by using a few analog pedals: comp, Tech21 VT, Aguilar Tonehammer, Lehle/RMI Basswitch IQ/DI, Empress Para EQ, …… When I needed a second sound (pick or overdrive) I have added an EQ or an overdrive pedal) etc…

What am I trying to say?
a clear DI vs speaker signal: the DI is almost always the „better” signal for a live mix. Meaning very often a clear DI cuts better and a miked speaker is an additional bonus. That is why a sound person prefers a „pre EQ DI” as opposed to a POST EQ DI from an amp, eq’ed for stage acoustics.
Now substitute IR for speaker and you have the same issues in your DI feed.

A „clear” DI signal I understand can have some comp, light saturation and or light eq HPF/LPF, and effects like Chorus, Filter, Octaver, Delay, ….) but no excessive boost or cuts.

There was a time when I heavily relied an the TwoNotes CabM+ (digital power amp and cab simulator). This lead to some heavy eq’ing, BECAUSE I could which meant some heard work for the sound tech to get a decent clear, defined (not necessarily„clean”) sound to work in the mix.

I think going ampless with some digital solution is very hard as there are too many options available, namely ampsims, IR…… that are giving the foh and monitor guy a hard time and by this will not satisfy anyone on stage either.

When only 2 or 3 sounds are needed, a few analog pedals will be easier and cheaper.

 

[TaySte_2000]

I would say and certainly in my case, I’m going ampless to be as light and as small as possible (travel) so digital becomes the smallest lightest option.

If I have 2-3 pedals I have to have a power supply, if I have this then I want a board and before I know it I’m carrying round something bigger, heavier and less capable than a digital unit.

Anagram for example I can run off my phone charger.

Now I will say, I did just go around with a countryman for years and was pretty happy with everything except the mix back to me from FOH, so I started taking a feed from them, blending it with my bass and over time that got more and more complicated until I bought the Anagram which just meant that no matter what I need I have and I have it in a small easy to power light box.

IRs are about the worst thing you can send to FOH but wholly necessary if you’re running drive sounds and using IEMs it’s a vicious cycle

 

[Trevorus]

Every time one of these threads comes up, I have to sing the praises of the two notes torpedo. It's a studio in a box, good amp Sims, microphone emulation including placement plus a front and rear mic for room response, and plenty of other options. It has been my go-to rig for my bass gig for years. Good sound in the ears and good sound out front and it is extremely portable and light. I add a tuner and eq pedal up front and I am golden.

 

[gillento]

IRs are about the worst thing you can send to FOH but wholly necessary if you’re running drive sounds and using IEMs it’s a vicious cycle

Not necessarily: a decent LPF will do or some kind of SLIGHT analog cab sim, like a VTBassDI.

 

[bassbrad]

While I can certainly understand the GAS & FOMO appeal of current technology. Like you I have been crafting "unplugged" and studio solutions for a good while so have analog tools and tricks that work for me and honestly I don't have the need for gigs I have or budget to delve into constantly emerging gadgets.

Unlike guitar players bass amps have never been a huge component of my "sound" on bass. That said I do on occasion use the various colorations or textures available on modelling since it can be a substitute for gear well beyong my means. For Example one of my favorite tools is a dbx ProVocal * processor as a stand in for mic preamps, mics styles and studio effects that make up a 'channel' when recording with my budget mics and for direct bass recording.

*Long discontinued but still a good sounding piece of gear, as is most of my studio rack with choice Yamaha, Roland, dbx, Rane, ART & Peavey gear.

 

[TaySte_2000]

Not necessarily: a decent LPF will do or some kind of SLIGHT analog cab sim, like a VTBassDI.

Fair but I also don’t want to be sending that to FOH in an ideal world. But I will admit over had far more success with analog cab sims than I have with IRs

 

[coyote1]

It depends. (A very dependable reply!)

As going ampless generally implies going digital, I have one contribution. In one of my apps I have a ring modulator effect. The rate control only has the usual 128 midi steps, so you cannot get the smoothness you’d get with an analog ringmod.

 

[pfschim]

I think the real reason for a lot of this signal processing is IEM's. It's one thing to send a good DI signal to FOH, where the sound tech will (hopefully) do what's needed to make your sound in the house sound great ... or at least fit into the mix well. When you add IEM's to the mix then the DI sound, which can often sound a bit "dry" can be improved by using cab and amp sims, giving you a better/nicer sound in your ears. Of course, you most likely don't want to send the affected IEM sound to FOH, because it might be a bit to much for that channel.

I know that when I started using IEMs fed just from my DI (Countryman), the signal sounded fine and sound techs we're happy with it, but I really wanted something to "sweeten" the tone that went into my IEMs. I'm still all over the place as far as IEM/FOH, but when I get a full ampless gig, I'm very happy with my in ear bass tone, and FOH techs are still happy with my DI signal.

 

[_Some Dude]

I have both of the extremes.

On one hand I have a tuner, dirt pedal, and a BDDI...

...and on the other I have a Quad Cortex, with a capture of my dirt pedal and BDDI.

First off, there's a certain absurdity to using an $1800 modeller to model a $250 pedal.

Second, I think if your setup is simple enough then an analogue preamp is better. Digital still has it's drawbacks, anyone who says it doesn't is lying to you or themselves.

Third, if your rig is complicated, you run a lot of effects, and/or you need to keep the footprint super small (such as a fly rig), then digital is worth the trade offs.

In my case the Quad Cortex is for a power trio where I have a lot of space and can do some weirdness. It lets me carry a 32" wide pedalboard's worth of crap in a Mono Tick. I also split the signal into two and output them separately one being straight DI and the other being a "mic'd amp".

For everything else, I use one of those micro boards with 3 pedals on it.

 

[Wasnex]

Is somebody trying to force you to go digital and use IRs?

We all have different ideas for how bass should sound. If you want to stay analog and use pedals and a regular DI, that should be entirely fine.

There could possibly be a benefit to dual sending your signal. For example one signal might be used solely for your IEM mix; so you get the sound and feel you want. The other signal might use an IR or some other form of digital processing to emulate the sound and feel of a certain bass rig for FOH.

My personal preference is for my stage sound to be pretty thin and bright so that it cuts through and allows me to hear fine detail in my performance. However, what I want on stage is not necessarily the ideal tone for the FOH mix.

I generally worked with really talented audio techs and trusted them to make me sound good to the audience.

 

[waveman]

It's all about finding what works for you. You can dial in great sounds with IR's or without. I use them with my Tonex setup.

 

[JamesGrant]

Yep. There was a thread a few months ago about IRs for bass cabs - IMO totally agree that 9 times out of 10, that they make a bass sound worse. The reason is that the cab sounds the way it does at the acoustic volume in the space (volume m3) it’s in - it’s a set of compromises. Capture that and play back at a different volume in a different room and it’s a bit weird. Sound engineer can usually do a better job without it.
All in my opinion - of course!!

 

[Ken Morgan]

Great analog preamps with line level feeds have been around a lot longer than digital and IRs…and will be long after the modeling, IR, etc craze is replaced with something else. Just opinion, but getting something that doesn’t require updates is very appealing, sound (IMO) noticeable superior at least for what I want to hear, and will do so for a long time

 

[darwin-bass]

I've tried IRs and cab sims and find they just make the sound too dark and tubby in the room. They are probably great for recording though.

 

[IceBlueBoogaloo]

I paid for the pedal with a cab sim feature, I’m gonna use the cab sim feature.

Jokes aside, I’m finding myself pulling away from IRs on the bass side of things. I found similar results to what’s been stated here. The Opus has been my main stay and I genuinely love their DynIR system. Some back and forth with AI and testing mic types and positions helped me better understand what’s going on with cab miking. It’s for that reason that I absolutely love it on guitar. The real appeal of the digital architecture of Opus on bass is the thoroughness of tone construction. I worked with my church’s sound guy to properly EQ my signal before he even has to touch it and the pre and power amp sections add whatever flavor I want.

I could see myself eventually moving to an analog solution just because bassists have it so good in the preamp DI market. For now, my guitar and bass board are one and the same mainly because my bass pedal needs are really small.

 

[groove pump]

(First let me start with stating that I am not a native english speaker)

With the risk of getting flamed:

This is not intended as a digital vs analog rant!

I get why people „are going ampless”. I have been crafting „my sound” using pedals for more than 2 decades. I have done this to not be at the mercy of a certain amp or cab, being able to play on any stage, thu any amp or even without an amp….. all before ever using IEM.
I have done this by using a few analog pedals: comp, Tech21 VT, Aguilar Tonehammer, Lehle/RMI Basswitch IQ/DI, Empress Para EQ, …… When I needed a second sound (pick or overdrive) I have added an EQ or an overdrive pedal) etc…

What am I trying to say?
a clear DI vs speaker signal: the DI is almost always the „better” signal for a live mix. Meaning very often a clear DI cuts better and a miked speaker is an additional bonus. That is why a sound person prefers a „pre EQ DI” as opposed to a POST EQ DI from an amp, eq’ed for stage acoustics.
Now substitute IR for speaker and you have the same issues in your DI feed.

A „clear” DI signal I understand can have some comp, light saturation and or light eq HPF/LPF, and effects like Chorus, Filter, Octaver, Delay, ….) but no excessive boost or cuts.

There was a time when I heavily relied an the TwoNotes CabM+ (digital power amp and cab simulator). This lead to some heavy eq’ing, BECAUSE I could which meant some heard work for the sound tech to get a decent clear, defined (not necessarily„clean”) sound to work in the mix.

I think going ampless with some digital solution is very hard as there are too many options available, namely ampsims, IR…… that are giving the foh and monitor guy a hard time and by this will not satisfy anyone on stage either.

When only 2 or 3 sounds are needed, a few analog pedals will be easier and cheaper.

I've found much success in terms of an "easier and cheaper" option over the past two months by using a Tech 21 Bass Fly Rig. If I get to wondering whether I need more that what this little rig can do, I'm pretty much kidding myself.

Amp models and IR's are fine and I'm happy for everybody in both the bass and guitar realms that put those to good use. I think I'd be more curious about them if I was recording here and there, but I'm not. I'm getting a hearty tone through our tidy PA at our gigs using the Fly Rig and with no need to set up my amp behind me to support my sound, our stage volume is more quiet. Loving this!!

 

[Guitalia]

It depends. (A very dependable reply!)

As going ampless generally implies going digital, I have one contribution. In one of my apps I have a ring modulator effect. The rate control only has the usual 128 midi steps, so you cannot get the smoothness you’d get with an analog ringmod.

Smoothness? As in smooth jazz?

Given that ring modulators are about as in-your-face as effects get, some might consider that a feature, not a bug.

 

[lamarjones]

Some assertions I do not find valid. Using a Sim has not been an automatic pain in the ass for sound guys. I think there's an agenda in that statement.

 

[Pings Bass]

Play what works for you. For me that's DI straight from the instrument. You don't have to do any sims if you don't want to. If you're playing venues with pro sound guys, less is always more. Let the guy standing out front worry about the "tone" while you worry about playing the notes.

Too many amateurs over-complicate things and muddle up the mix. I've never met a pro who couldn't show up and plug their instrument straight into a passive DI and do the job if they have to, but I've seen plenty of amateurs waste precious sound check time futzing with their boards then changing everything during their set, then bitching about the sound tech.