The concerto commonly known as the "Dragonetti" was written by Edouard Nanny (or is believed to write it). Dragonetti himself actually did write 10 concerto's. I was wondering has anyone actually seen these 10 concerto's? Every time I try and research it but I only come up with the "Dragonetti".
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Double Bass Dragonetti and Nanny
- Thread starter mcnaire2004
- Start date
- Jan 24, 2002
- 2,117
- 950
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- NS Design / AER Endorsing Artist
They're in the process of being sorted through. There was an article about it in Double Bassist. I believe the manuscripts are held in an English library. I want to say there's 9 though, not 10. I'm probably wrong about all of that.
The only one I've heard is his Concerto in G played by Ubaldo Fioravanti. It's fairly boring. I'm more interested in seeing the concertos for historical reasons rather than actually playing them.
However, the remainder of that disc by Fioravanti is really interesting. The duet for cello and double bass, the quintet, and the quartet for violin, viola, cello, and double bass are all pretty good compositions that I would actually consider to program for recitals. It also has three of those unaccompanied waltzes.
The only one I've heard is his Concerto in G played by Ubaldo Fioravanti. It's fairly boring. I'm more interested in seeing the concertos for historical reasons rather than actually playing them.
However, the remainder of that disc by Fioravanti is really interesting. The duet for cello and double bass, the quintet, and the quartet for violin, viola, cello, and double bass are all pretty good compositions that I would actually consider to program for recitals. It also has three of those unaccompanied waltzes.
I believe his 10 concerto's are held in the British Museum. I got all my information off the "history" that came with the Dragonetti.
Mcnaire, I never heard that Nanny actually wrote the "Dragonetti" Concerto. I was under the impression that he edited it. The concerto attributed to Dragonetti was likely to have been writen by someone else, but I'm not really sure if it was Nanny. Anyway, where did you hear that?
By the way, on a similar note, it is said that the 1st movement (and probably 3rd as well) of the Koussevitzky Concerto were written by a student of his, and then it was published under Koussevitzky's name. However, it is believed that Koussevitzky actually did write the 2nd movement, and there is an actual recording of him playing it somewhere out there in the world. I've never heard it though.....still looking.
By the way, on a similar note, it is said that the 1st movement (and probably 3rd as well) of the Koussevitzky Concerto were written by a student of his, and then it was published under Koussevitzky's name. However, it is believed that Koussevitzky actually did write the 2nd movement, and there is an actual recording of him playing it somewhere out there in the world. I've never heard it though.....still looking.
ClassicalBass said:
Some people beleive that Nanny wrote the concerto. When other (ultimatley insignificant) compositions of Dragonetti are compared to the concerto the compositional styles have subtle but significant diffrences.
ClassicalBass said:
Another theory is that Koussevitzky wrote only the DB part and the rest of the concerto was composed and orchestrated by Reinold Gliere. I have the recording of SK playing and while I respect tradition, I think it sucks.
He uses so much portamento that on some shorter notes I can't tell which he meant to play! If you really want it PM me and I'll find some way to get it to you.ClassicalBass said:
Well, when I bout the Dragonetti Concerto it had a page of back story behind it. And, it gave a long paragraph on the true authorship of the concerto. I am at school now and can't post it but, I will post that paragraph when I get home today.
Well guys, Dragonetti did not write the concerto for sure, so let the mistery be solved. And if you guys want some proofs, that you all are after that, http://www.liben.com/Reviews11.html
At the bottom of the page there is a review by Max Christiansen.
And Paul, let me say that before you suppose things... go and check them out, the Concerto No.3 and No.5 are published, I have No.3 and it's quite good, besides the rest of pieces are quite nice too.
Justin... the other compositions are not insignificant... for example the Pezzo di Concerto, the Andante and Rondo, the Valses and the list keeps going, so go and do some listening.
Also if you guys want to check, I will say look for Michele Veronese, Ubaldo Fioravanti, Klaus Stoll, Ovidiu Badila... they all record Dragonetti's music.
Send me a PM if you can't find the recordings.
At the bottom of the page there is a review by Max Christiansen.
And Paul, let me say that before you suppose things... go and check them out, the Concerto No.3 and No.5 are published, I have No.3 and it's quite good, besides the rest of pieces are quite nice too.
Justin... the other compositions are not insignificant... for example the Pezzo di Concerto, the Andante and Rondo, the Valses and the list keeps going, so go and do some listening.
Also if you guys want to check, I will say look for Michele Veronese, Ubaldo Fioravanti, Klaus Stoll, Ovidiu Badila... they all record Dragonetti's music.
Send me a PM if you can't find the recordings.
ClassicalBass said:
I don't think Gliere was a student of Koussevitzky's, none the less, that is supposedly who put together the concerto using K's own tunes.
Here is where to find the recording:
Koussevitzky Complete Double Bass recordings
Enjoy,
Allan
dannbass said:
This only actually proves that the person who wrote that review believes that Edouard Nanny wrote the concerto. Unless you can find the original manuscript signed by the composer, I would not claim to have the answer.
Also, I personally feel that the significance of Dragonetti's concerti and other compositions is questionable. Personally, I don't care for them and I would, without question, describe them as a relatively insignificant contribution to the musical discourse.
Let me see what I can do... I know that the concert was written as "à la Dragonetti" by Nanny and in Alphonse Leduc et Cie they changed it. However, there should be a way to solve this, so let me see.
Now you personally think that, I respect it. It's just that a lot of people don't know the pieces, and if they don't know they can't judge them, it's the same think with the Eccles... I think is ugly... but it's my opinion. Anyway but to the topic, I'll do some research.
Here is what the "history" that is on the inside cover of the Dragonetti concerto says concerning authorship.
"Ever since the publication by Leduc (1925) of this Concerto there has been a question concerning its true authorship. It is now generally believed that it is the work of Edouard Nanny who created it as a tribute to Dragonetti. Nanny (1872-1942) was one of the most eminent bassists and teachers of his time, Professor at the Paris Conservatoire from 1920 to 1940, Principal Bas at the Opera-Comique, recitalist, composer. He had written a Method for the Bass, 60Etudes, a collection of short pieces and a Concerto. We know, therefore, that he was capable of creating this "Dragonetti" Concerto. Evidence that this is so abounds (1) The British Museum's collection of Dragonetti's manuscripts contains 10 Concertos none of which is this one; (2) The Nanny Concerto remarkably resembles this one in its melodic and technical passages; (3) The title page of this Concerto lists, as composer: Dragonetti - (E. Nanny) whereas publishing tradition would have "edited: E. Nanny" after Dragonetti's name. What is more important than the solution to this mystery is that this Concerto offers an opportunity to diplay the bass an instrument both lyrical and virtuosic, a worthy first-class member of the String family."
This is where my question comes from^^^^^^^^
"Ever since the publication by Leduc (1925) of this Concerto there has been a question concerning its true authorship. It is now generally believed that it is the work of Edouard Nanny who created it as a tribute to Dragonetti. Nanny (1872-1942) was one of the most eminent bassists and teachers of his time, Professor at the Paris Conservatoire from 1920 to 1940, Principal Bas at the Opera-Comique, recitalist, composer. He had written a Method for the Bass, 60Etudes, a collection of short pieces and a Concerto. We know, therefore, that he was capable of creating this "Dragonetti" Concerto. Evidence that this is so abounds (1) The British Museum's collection of Dragonetti's manuscripts contains 10 Concertos none of which is this one; (2) The Nanny Concerto remarkably resembles this one in its melodic and technical passages; (3) The title page of this Concerto lists, as composer: Dragonetti - (E. Nanny) whereas publishing tradition would have "edited: E. Nanny" after Dragonetti's name. What is more important than the solution to this mystery is that this Concerto offers an opportunity to diplay the bass an instrument both lyrical and virtuosic, a worthy first-class member of the String family."
This is where my question comes from^^^^^^^^
ClassicalBass said:
No, Koussevitzky did write the entire concerto. I talked with the old old principal bassist of the London Philharmonic and he said that Koussevitzky and him had conversations years ago about his compositional process and how gliere helped tidying things up. He DID have a lot of compositional guidance from Gliere. I own the recording of Koussevitzky himself playing his Chason Triste and 2nd Movement from the Concerto. The style by which it was played was very much in the past, every note was connected with slurs (some say this was to achieve accuracy in intonation, but I think of it more stylisticaly.) He really plays his own works beautifully, but it's not something that you would be allowed to replicate in style and be accepted today. A funny story is that during Koussevitzky's time as Music Director of the BSO, there was a section bass audition and Koussevitzky invited the player into his dressing room for a private audition. Koussevitzky asked him what he would like to play and the bassist said
"Well, I think I'll play your Concerto, Maestro."
Koussevitzky replied "Do you think you can play it better than myself?",
"No ofcourse not, Maestro."
"Then get out."
dannbass said:
I would really like to know where these concertos can be purchased and heard. I also have the Fioravanti recording and I have played the duo for cello and bass. It's a fun little piece.
dragonetti11 said:
Both Concertos are published by Verlag Doblinger and Rudolf Malaric edited them. I don't know if you can buy them now online, I both mine in Berlin at Reiders, and they had both ther. However, I'm sure that you can ILL them.
And as far as recordings, dunno... but there is a belgiam who is working on the editing and publishing of the rest, and if I remember correctly he was going to record them as well. I don't remember his name on top of my head, but I'll look it up.
