Advice for an aspiring pro

Thanks, Ben. Glad you liked the show. It was a total delight for us, in every way.

Unfortunately, you're asking a very sweepingly broad, general question. And one that has been touched on to some extent already on this board.

Let me attempt to speak on it for a moment.

You need to commit. Fully. Not to say you won't have a day job, but you need to make it feel, to yourself and others, that being a musician is your life, and you will drop anything to do it.

You need to have a great deal of confidence without ego. A fine balance.

You need to be stylistically plugged in across several areas that you can be good at; try not to specialize too much, I'd say.

You have to have taste, which is borne out of being a semi-professional musicologist, if you will. A fat record collection and a deep knowledge never hurts.

You need to be willing to work for free and/or cheap for a while.

You need to hang out where musicians hang out.

You need to not be trendy - not only in terms of your playing, gear what have you. I'm talking about your vibe and look, too.

I'm sure there's about 500 other things, that's just stuff off the top. Any other pro's want to chime in?

Best,
JMJ

It's all good, I usually check the board before soundcheck and after the show. My pleasure to help in any way I can. Would love to hear what any other pro's have to say as well.

I'd definitely agree with everything Justin said. I would add though that you need to figure out what kind of player you want to be. What I mean to say is do you want to be a guy in a band, or do you want to be a hired guy and play for different artists. You can definitely do both (Justin is a perfect example of this), but they do take a different focus and drive in my opinion and can be really hard to juggle. If you want to be a hired player then one definite thing I can add is you're going to have to leave in a city where touring/recording is a constant. In the states it's New York, L.A., Nashville and a few others. If anything this will expose you to players that will be your colleagues (or competition). It is a rough business to get into, one of the most talented Musicians I've ever met just moved back in his parents house because he was broke, yet one of the crappier players I've ever seen makes $7,000 a show and continues to get work. You can't ever tell, but I can't imagine doing anything else.

jmjbassplayer said:

It's all good, I usually check the board before soundcheck and after the show. My pleasure to help in any way I can.

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I just have to say that you embody the best parts of any musician community I've come across. You obviously have the chops and the gigs, yet you consistently reach out to aspiring players to pull them up rather than revel in your own successes.

Not that I expect it to ever happen, but I would hope that I could remain as down to earth as you if I was in your shoes.

Good luck and take care.

I've seen him revel, but just a tiny bit, and way less than I would if I were doing it

All great advice, advice I wish I had access to when I was a kid.

My 2 cents I always throw in on this subject, is this: in this day and age (and one only needs to look at Justin's work for a good example) is you need to diversify. Specifically what I mean is, of course learn your instrument--strive to be the best bassist you can and devour as many styles of music as you can--- but make sure you also start experimenting with writing, learn keys and/or guitar enough to get around on them(especially for writing) and absolutely learn about recording and production---in addition to spending time and money on bass, get yourself set up with some kind of DAW and learn the nuts and bolts(Logic, protools, cubase--whatever). At the very least you'll be able to record yourself, and beyond that you can produce, engineer, master. Alternatively, if you really just want to be the bass man, and aren't driven to write or record/produce, then still dig into your bass whole-hog but also learn about the biz and get savvy with publishing, licensing, etc. If you end up as a bassist with a day job, it's ideal if it's in the entertainment biz in some way for all the connections.

Jackson E said:

I'd definitely agree with everything Justin said. I would add though that you need to figure out what kind of player you want to be. What I mean to say is do you want to be a guy in a band, or do you want to be a hired guy and play for different artists. You can definitely do both (Justin is a perfect example of this), but they do take a different focus and drive in my opinion and can be really hard to juggle. If you want to be a hired player then one definite thing I can add is you're going to have to leave in a city where touring/recording is a constant. In the states it's New York, L.A., Nashville and a few others. If anything this will expose you to players that will be your colleagues (or competition). It is a rough business to get into, one of the most talented Musicians I've ever met just moved back in his parents house because he was broke, yet one of the crappier players I've ever seen makes $7,000 a show and continues to get work. You can't ever tell, but I can't imagine doing anything else.

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This is what I was hoping someone would chime in with. I agree with all the above points.

Let me chime in on what Jackson said and re-interpret from my perspective: It starts with a clear, honest assessment of your own purpose. That's perhaps the first thing you should try and know about yourself.

Which will then lead to an articulation (something I'd say you should actually go through the exercise of writing down) of what you want to actually BE, in great detail.

I actually do that once a year - I type up where I'm at, vs. where I want to be. And I put as much detail down as possible, as theoretical as it may seem. But something about having that document in my laptop (which I re-read and modify often) keeps me aligned to some sort of ultimate purpose, rather than simply taking whatever gig I can get and "getting by".

Practically speaking, I would also say that the big cities yield more opportunities in terms of quantity AND perhaps quality as well. But I know people in smaller cities (Portland, OR on the larger end, and places like Norman, OK on the smaller side of the spectrum) who work all the time. They aren't making $7K per gig (dayum!), but they are making a living.

I have also seen what Jackson has seen: great players not doing so well, poor players making too much. It does happen.

But in the ultimate sense, most great players who have initiative, intelligence, taste, skill, and a good heart seem to rise to the top eventually.

Best,
JMJ

And for some input from a relatively inexperienced amateur who was in the OPs shoes not too long ago:

It takes a complete lifestyle change and commitment. You need to be willing to work for it harder than you've ever worked for anything, push your own preferences aside (at least to get started... as you become more established what you think suddenly begins to matter to some people) and know that even if you give it EVERYTHING you have, it just might not pan out.

It wasn't a gamble/commitment I was ready to dedicate fully to, so rather than insult (may be too strong of a word) those who could make that decision and have that dedication, I decided to enjoy music as much as I can, but go in a different direction professionally.

WhiteKnuckles said:

I just have to say that you embody the best parts of any musician community I've come across. You obviously have the chops and the gigs, yet you consistently reach out to aspiring players to pull them up rather than revel in your own successes.

Not that I expect it to ever happen, but I would hope that I could remain as down to earth as you if I was in your shoes.

Good luck and take care.

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Well thank you very much Mr. Knuckles. That is mighty kind of you. I don't really have a choice; I'm a musician who is aware of the ebb and flow of the business, and I'm also aware of those times when the phone ISN'T ringing off the hook. It comes and goes. That keeps you humble, but it keeps you ambitious and busy as well. Oh gosh, now you've gotten me started:

There are guys who used to help me out when I was younger. I really took a cue from them. Guys with patience, grace, and interest.

But there were also guys who I encountered who, in their arrogance and insecurity, seemed to think that helping me in any way would somehow give away some imagined secret, or take away from their status or something. But those people seemed either slightly miserable, or to have short-lived success.

So, likewise, I took a cue from them too!

So it really doesn't make sense for me to do anything BUT try and pull other people up with me. Clinging possessively to my "stature" or my success doesn't really fit my style. I'd like every musician to be able to do what I do.

Because ultimately, DIDN'T WE ALL COME FROM THE SAME PLACE? JAMMING ALONG TO RECORDS, THEN EVENTUALLY IN THE GARAGE, THEN EVENTUALLY AT A BACKYARD PARTY AND/OR THE HIGH SCHOOL TALENT SHOW??? THEN YOUR FIRST CLUB GIG? ETC. ETC.

In other words, you've got to always REMEMBER THAT FEELING. And that you shared it with other young players too!

I remember it like it was yesterday.

So when I walked into Air Canada Centre in Toronto yesterday at soundcheck and saw 15,000 soon-to-be-filled empty seats, I greeted my tech and strapped on a bass. I took a deep breath, and had a moment. I smiled a very broad smile, looked around, took stock of everything I could see, and felt a little bit misty. Because I realized that THIS is the dream realized, right here. And I counted my lucky stars, and silently gave thanks everyone in my history who ever tipped their hat my way.

If you do it the right way and give back what you get, this career never, EVER, gets old.

Thanks for reading.

JMJ

pbass2 said:

My 2 cents I always throw in on this subject, is this: in this day and age (and one only needs to look at Justin's work for a good example) is you need to diversify. Specifically what I mean is, of course learn your instrument--strive to be the best bassist you can and devour as many styles of music as you can--- but make sure you also start experimenting with writing, learn keys and/or guitar enough to get around on them(especially for writing) and absolutely learn about recording and production---in addition to spending time and money on bass, get yourself set up with some kind of DAW and learn the nuts and bolts(Logic, protools, cubase--whatever). At the very least you'll be able to record yourself, and beyond that you can produce, engineer, master. Alternatively, if you really just want to be the bass man, and aren't driven to write or record/produce, then still dig into your bass whole-hog but also learn about the biz and get savvy with publishing, licensing, etc. If you end up as a bassist with a day job, it's ideal if it's in the entertainment biz in some way for all the connections.

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HEAR HEAR!! This is vital. Take heed!!

JMJ

If I may quickly add a thing or two I've learned:

Diversification is key. Yeah, we all want to get onstage and rock out for lots of money, but sometimes you don't get that luxury. It's already been touched on before, but I don't know many successful working musicians who don't do a lot of different things. Many play in several different bands, some teach, some own recording studios, some own PA and rent it out, some own instrument shops, etc. Me, I do a lot of freelancing around my main gig, I teach off and on and I have a business where I record music for people who can't record music (not songpoems like in the back of the Star, but legit), and I also write and arrange charts for many of the acts I work with. Between all of it, I make a pretty OK living. Wish it was better but don't we all?

Also, play gigs that can better your career even if you don't like them. One need only look to Justin's bandmate Josh Freese. Sure, he can pick and choose gigs now, but there was a time he was playing at Disney World as a house drummer. The music may have been a little cheesy from time to time, but he worked with musicians twice and three times his age who had been pros for a long time and he learned from them and honed his playing in a lot of different styles. Knowing some of those guys as I do, he also learned a lot about what NOT to do and I'm sure found out why some of those players won't ever advance past it (geez, some of those guys whine about the most inane stuff!). I know some people want to get all artiste about the music they play, which is fine, but if you're looking to make a living with music, the more you limit yourself, the more limited you are.

Learn sales ability. This was my big problem for a long time. Still is to a certain extent. But hey, it's sales. Any time you ask for money for services, sales skills are involved. I guess that was touched on as well, but it bears repeating. Justin had a lot of good tips on how to sell yourself to potential clients.

thanks so much for chiming in Justin! I really enjoying reading your section more than any others just because I "feel" your personality a bit more than some of the other "pros" that post on here.

****How important do you think reading music is? I realize if you are going for more studio dates it's important but what about being a hired gun for gigs?****

I'm starting to branch out a bit more and play with some local groups that need bass aside from my main gig. It's fun and I enjoy the change in the music and just playing with different musicians but it's also a lot of hard work juggling schedules and learning new material.

Thanks again!

Juniorkimbrough said:

thanks so much for chiming in Justin! I really enjoying reading your section more than any others just because I "feel" your personality a bit more than some of the other "pros" that post on here.

****How important do you think reading music is? I realize if you are going for more studio dates it's important but what about being a hired gun for gigs?****

I'm starting to branch out a bit more and play with some local groups that need bass aside from my main gig. It's fun and I enjoy the change in the music and just playing with different musicians but it's also a lot of hard work juggling schedules and learning new material.

Thanks again!

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I'll chime in real quick, and hope no one minds. I think a working knowledge of reading music is a great tool, but in todays world it's not imperative (unless you're playing for a symphony in which case head over to the upright forums). I have never been on a session where they hand you a piece of sheet music. By majority it's chord charts (or number charts here in Nashville) that may have a line or phrase written in standard notation. You should be able to read chord charts backwards and forwards, and be able to change keys quickly. I think everyone should learn to read music in both bass and treble clef though, it damn sure won't hurt you as a player.

Junior, thanks - glad you like reading here. I appreciate that it is hard work juggling a main gig and doing things on the side, but that is a recipe towards success, my man. That kind of diversity.

And as Jackson says, reading is not imperative. But in LA, it sure comes in handy sometimes! Charts are a must, but sometimes people will write out some figures in standard notation that you need to read, particularly on film projects. Also yes, be prepared to change keys on the fly...it happens.

JMJ

jmjbassplayer said:

Also yes, be prepared to change keys on the fly...it happens.

JMJ

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I started writing my own charts out in the Nashville numbers approach a few years back when I was playing with a hardcore honky-tonk artist who used to pull key changes on the band willy-nilly(or maybe it was because after a few too many Jack Daniels, there was no telling where that capo might end up! Anyhow, it's a great system to use--a very useful "short-hand". I don't see them too much here in LA in rock, pop, urban, etc. (or any charts for that matter--I usually write my own), but ya never know--would be good to get it under your belt as well as as chord charts--can save your arse.

I must be one of the very few people left where reading skills are used constantly. I back up oldies shows, and we're always having to read charts. Sometimes they're chord charts, sometimes they're Nashville charts, sometimes they're notated and they want the songs played note for note. I also do a lot of in-town things where reading is required, like if we don't have time to rehearse new tunes or something. But being able to read well has made a tremendous difference in the amount of gigs I get, and if I couldn't, I doubt I'd be doing many of the better paying gigs in Orlando.

Thanks for chiming in Jimmy. That's one thing I noticed and why I asked specifically about reading.....it seems as though different type/styles of music sometimes have different expectations.

On bass I'm pretty much self taught for the most part and IMHO having a great ear has really helped me be a better player. Just really working on my ear training and learning new tunes by ear sometimes you can just predict the next chord just due to the structure of a song. Hard to explain....

I'm getting a bit off topic, but I would love to hear other players opinions/experiences on this.

I think being charismatic yet not overbearing really helps you get more gigs as well. Justin is a great example of this. I see so many players that get a little bit of a local reputation going and it all goes to their head and they end up turning into huge d\cks with more ego than talent. I love to mingle with the crowd after a gig, from working in sales a bit I've learning that it's great to NOT talk about yourself....ask about the person you are talking to, learn more about them...this really helps to establish some sort of connection with your fans and makes them feel like you care. Also you never know what connections with people this person may have. It's all about selling yourself as a easy/nice person to talk to and or do business with and just being real and down to earth.

anyways, I'm starting to rambling a bit.......I apologize