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Wow!!! Avatar 212 crossover mod

Robear22

Robear22

Sep 28, 2004
1,601
256
55
Zion, Ill
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#1
I know there are other threads about this but they are kinda old and I wanted to give my own personal review.

I got my 212 cab used from a guy on the HCBF for a decent( :eek: ) price!!!! As i was messing with my setup I broke one of the 1/4 jacks on the input panel. I let it go for a couple of days but could not get over having one of my 1/4's messed up so I called Dave at Avatar to get a replacement. They told me about the new crossover that they were selling to upgrade the old cabs. I told them that I was not the original buyer and I got the cab used. It did not matter and I could have one on my doorstep for $30 bucks. I did it and it came yesterday. I played yesterday evening at a church service and what I have noticed about the 212 is that the cab is really oud but the mids seem to be a little lost. Not as pronounced as my 210 but more than my 15. I guess what they say is true you get the best of both worlds.

Anyway I hook up the crossover after service and waited with anticipation to hear the difference. One difference is the actual plate. The new one has a better attenuator and it has two caps and two resistors. The old one had just one cap hot glued to the panel. After switching them out I turn on my amp and wow!!!! I am blown away with how the mids are so pronounced and the tweeter and speakers no longer sound seperated. They sound as one. The hiss has decreased and I can turn the volume up on the tweeter to over half and get some incredible tone. Anyone with an Avatar cab pre new crossover should really consider getting this. I also have the Delta 210 and the SB112 and will be getting the crossover for both of them. Especially the 210 because it is so old it does not even have the speak on connection which I am going to need when I get my Kustom Groovebass 1200 next week.

Has anyone else done the crossover mod and what have you experienced?
 
#5
Just FYI, the "order" of a crossover has nothing to do with its quality. It is a measure of how many dB per octave is cut on one side of the center frequency of the crossover. Each order represents 6 dB per octave, so a first-order filter is 6 dB per ocatave, second order 12, etc. You want to select the appropriate order for the effect you're trying to achieve. Even within a certain order, there are several designs involving other factors including the bandwidth of the filter. You've got your Bessel, Butterworth, and Linkwitz-Riley filters, for example. The one I use most of the time in crossing over frequencies in my PA system is the 4th-order (24 dB per octave) Linkwitz-Riley. However, EAW sometimes recommends Bessel or Butterworth filters of various orders in EQing their systems.
 
#6
the "order" of a crossover has nothing to do with its quality
Click to expand...
Beg to differ. A 1st order filter offers virtually no protection for a HF driver. 2nd order is better but is rife with phase issues and allows far too much bandwidth overlap. In pro-sound use 3rd order is the minimum acceptable to give adequate protection for the HF driver and minimize bandwidth overlap. 4th order Linkwitz-Reilly gives even better protection and bandwidth isolation with minimal phase issues, while the current state of the art in passive crossovers is 3rd order low pass/5th order high pass. The various toplogies have their own individual merits, but without even considering Bessel vs Butterworth vs L-R etc, etc, etc, the fact remains that all things considered in the vast majority of applications a higher order is better than a lower order. This is one of them.
 
#7
billfitzmaurice said:
Beg to differ. A 1st order filter offers virtually no protection for a HF driver. 2nd order is better but is rife with phase issues and allows far too much bandwidth overlap. In pro-sound use 3rd order is the minimum acceptable to give adequate protection for the HF driver and minimize bandwidth overlap. 4th order Linkwitz-Reilly gives even better protection and bandwidth isolation with minimal phase issues, while the current state of the art in passive crossovers is 3rd order low pass/5th order high pass. The various toplogies have their own individual merits, but without even considering Bessel vs Butterworth vs L-R etc, etc, etc, the fact remains that all things considered in the vast majority of applications a higher order is better than a lower order. This is one of them.
Click to expand...
So you're trying to achieve HF driver protection. For that application higher is better. I'm curious why dbx, EAW, BSS, et al would even waste the time to put first-order filters in their processors. I still maintain that there are applications in which lower order filters may be chosen to accomplish a particular sonic goal, just as in parametric EQs, in which Q can be varied to meet the needs of the situation.
 
#8
Some hi-fi purists prefer the minimal intrusion of first order filters, and in some cases the combined acoustic and electrical roll off can be the equivalent of 2nd or even 3rd order for adequate driver bandwidth isolation. But this only works if the HF unit is robust enough not to require more protection than a 1st order filter offers. 1st order HP filters are often applied with hi-fi super tweeters, with the knee placed an octave or two above the intended f3, for seamless integration with full range woofers. Neither of these scenarios would ever be encountered in pro-sound, but as far as offering the 1st order option with a digital electronic crossover there's no additional parts count required to do so, just another algorithm to enter into the program, so why not? I doubt many users employ the 8th order option either, but it looks good in the ad copy.
 
#9
The only thing I can say is I notice a significant improvement in the sound of my cab and the 2nd order is fine for me. For only 30 bucks with shipping my old cab sounds like a completely different cab. Some of you may think that it is not that much of a difference but my ears tell me something different. :D

Try it or the other one but try something for god's sake.
 
#10
billfitzmaurice said:
Some hi-fi purists prefer the minimal intrusion of first order filters, and in some cases the combined acoustic and electrical roll off can be the equivalent of 2nd or even 3rd order for adequate driver bandwidth isolation. But this only works if the HF unit is robust enough not to require more protection than a 1st order filter offers. 1st order HP filters are often applied with hi-fi super tweeters, with the knee placed an octave or two above the intended f3, for seamless integration with full range woofers. Neither of these scenarios would ever be encountered in pro-sound, but as far as offering the 1st order option with a digital electronic crossover there's no additional parts count required to do so, just another algorithm to enter into the program, so why not? I doubt many users employ the 8th order option either, but it looks good in the ad copy.
Click to expand...
True enough, but my point is centered more on the fact that HF driver protection is not the only function of filters. You may use a 4th-order filter at the high end of the frequency spectrum, but lower-order filters down in the lows and mids.

For example, EAW recommends a 3rd-order Butterworth filter for the LPF on their JFX-260 and 290 cabinets, with 4th-order Butterworth at the high end. On the other hand, everything is 4th-order L-R for their JFX-590s and SBX-220 subs. When tri-amping or tri-amp with subs, it's not all about the HF end.

Please note I have over 10,000 posts.
 
#11
Munjibunga said:
Please note I have over 10,000 posts.
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I'm sorry but this frustrates me. I won't dispute whether or not you are very knowledgable, because you probably know an infinite amount more than I do; but saying that you post a lot or talk a lot does nothing to prove your credibility. Comments like that really weaken an argument.

I built and installed the 4th order crossover in my B212. The tweeter is seemless, its the hardest to notice tweeter I have ever heard from any cab when playing finger style. I had a hard time verifying whether or not it was working after I installed mine, until I started popping the strings. The 4th order crossover was a huge improvement. The cab still has the same general sound, just more refined- incase anyone was expecting a miracle from a $30 part. My $0.02
 
#13
DeadRBassistNJ said:
I'm sorry but this frustrates me. I won't dispute whether or not you are very knowledgable, because you probably know an infinite amount more than I do; but saying that you post a lot or talk a lot does nothing to prove your credibility. Comments like that really weaken an argument.
Click to expand...
Pwned! I win.

BTW, I would point out that I have almost exactly 10,000 more posts than you do.
 
#16
Munjibunga said:
Please note I have over 10,000 posts.
Click to expand...
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed][Invalid or Expired Link Removed][Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

You are not your post count. Statements like this are arrogant, yet meaningless. You may know more than all of us combined, but posting stuff like this makes you sound like an arrogant prick. Nobody gives a crap how many posts you have. If we cared, we would check your profile. You are not a Total Hyper-Elite Member. [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] And even if you were, i'm sure none of us STILL would care. :rolleyes:
 
#18
The 0x said:
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed][Invalid or Expired Link Removed][Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

You are not your post count. Statements like this are arrogant, yet meaningless. You may know more than all of us combined, but posting stuff like this makes you sound like an arrogant prick. Nobody gives a crap how many posts you have. If we cared, we would check your profile. You are not a Total Hyper-Elite Member. [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] And even if you were, i'm sure none of us STILL would care. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
A. The bait is swallowed.
B. The hook is set.
C. I'm reelin' you in.
D. I am a Total Hyper-Elite Member, with over 10,000 posts.

Your only salvation is if you are only playing like you're incensed, which I doubt.

PS: Cute smilies.
 
#20
If I may step back on track for a moment, I would just say that, while Bill has only a little more than 1,000 posts, he makes his living dealing with the subject matter, I don't. You should hang your hat on what he says. Please also note that Bill did not take the 10,000 post bait, speaking highly of his maturity, self-confidence and self-esteem (and his ability to smell a joke).
 

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