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Double Bass Mozart 40 accents

Where does the stress fall in this excerpt? I'm talking about Symphony No. 40 in G minor, Movt. 1, W. A. Mozart, mm. 114-138. The standard excerpt. In the first few measures, is the stress on the upper neighbor (the C and G) or the chord tone (B natural)? My Klemperer has a pretty clear stress on the chord tones, and I've never really heard this section as being syncopated, as acceting the upbeat suggests.

Thoughts?
 
Well that is open to interpretation and one that will take many years of study to answer. Many people believe that because it is Mozart, you accent the chord tone and not the appogiatura. I believe that you accent the appogiatura and bring out the dissonance, because it is Mozart. Also, remember though that the B quarter is more important than the G quarter and gets the stress because of phrasing.
 
While some things can be up for interpretation, this is one thing that I believe really should not be.

It is a fact that in common time (cut time in this example, I believe) the 1st and 3rd beat are naturally accented (it's really hard to avoid it), and the 2nd and 4th beat are weaker, especially in classical music. Some jazz and samba styles, etc., purposely accent the 2nd and 4th, and that is why they sound interesting; they are a direct inversion to a natural process.

Being that the upper neighbors as you say are appogiatura AND they are on the natural weak beats of the measure, they should not be accented, but rather lead to the accented chord tone which is on the beat.

Try this, with the slurs written in the score (ignore the dashed lines, the forums don't recognize multiple spaces so I had to put them there):

> = accent
() = Beat

---->------->------>-->
C-B-B--C-B-B--C-B-B--G
----()------()------()---
The musically pleasing phrase, "B B BG," comes out.

Now try this, also with the slurs written in the score:
>------->-------->------>
C-B-B---C-B-B---C-B-B--G
----()-------()-------()---

The somewhat musical but bland phrase, "C C C G," comes out.

================================================

What makes the first phrase interesting is there are three notes which are on the beat, and then one sudden (somewhat accented) note which is off the beat. Not only do you keep the integrity of the chord tones straight, but you also address a natural point of musical interest, namely the mixture and juxtaposition of accented on and off beat notes. The G, even though it is off the beat, is accented in the case, being that it is the end of the phrase, and it is not an appogiatura.

The second phrase provides four notes which are off the beat. There is less musical interest in having all notes occupy the same quality. Not only to you supply something that is musically bland, but you also displace the natural musical beat by one beat, confusing the overall rhythmic interlocking of notes with the other parts, and making even some of the less musical audience members think: "Wait...something wasn't right there..." On top of that, you accent non-chord tones, which confuses the overall harmonic structure of the section.
 
Tbassist -

I agree with you, but you are talking strictly about rhythmic interpretation. But you must also consider harmonic interpretation. the C is more important than the first B and the second B is the most important note of the 3 notes. That is why it is commonly played starting on a down bow by just about every instrument other than bass. This bring out the dissonance and also allows for the agogic accent on the 1st and 3rd beats.
 
Yes, the C is more important than the first B, but as you said the second B is the most important of the 3 notes. Therefore, as you say, the stress should be "More Less Most" respectively, which I agree with, but you can get a very decent accent out of an up bow and then you have the bow ready for the stronger accent, using a down bow. You are essentially, "saving the best for last." So, an up bow, which can be very strong, is used, and then the second note of the three, or the first B, will decay from the C continuing on the up bow. Then for the most important of the three notes, a down bow will be used, which is appropriate, being the strongest bowstroke.

The dissonance can be brought out, but what happens when it is done with a down bow first is the C is made the most important of the three, when it should be the second most important. The stress is then "Most Less More," and the chord tone is then overshadowed by the emphasized appogiatura, which is just that, a grace note. The listener then interprets the first note as the most important.

As for the comment about it being commonly played on a down bow by all of the other instruments, that is up to the editor. Mozart put no bow stroke markings in his scores to my knowledge, so the editor is the one who puts them in. So we are left with what musically makes sense. Classical interpretation denotes that pick up notes should be performed with an up bow. If there are no markings saying otherwise in Mozart's hand, then there is no reason to assume otherwise.

If you are going for a modern interpretation, which is honorable, but not accurate, then starting on a down bow is fine. Then the dissonance is emphasized. If you are going for a classical interpretation, then starting on an up bow would be best. Then the dissonance is touched upon, and it functions as an appogiatura and anticipation of the chord tone.

Just my take on things, and I don't mean to sound as if I'm speaking sternly or angrily, that's just how I sound when I discuss things, haha.
 
hmmm interesing discussion. Might as well throw in my 2 cents. I do not feel that one note is more important than the other. 1st of all we need to decide if this is a melodic or harmonic passage. 3 things I notice right off the bat. 1) it is a MELODIC idea with harmonic implications so we can treat it as a melody 2) there are 2 bees (i'm corny) in a row which are not slurred together 3) mozart repeats the same idea 3 times to create tension in the phrase (accents kill tension in any long phrase)... so how to make it smooth and melodic, yet point out that there is a seperation (non slur) between the 2 repeated notes. most people rely on the bow change to point out the 2nd B. In an Orchestra setting, the large # of people in modern string sections requires that extra attention is made to the seperation which conductors of the past have done which can be misleading. I like the cleveland szell recording more than others in this section yet I do not think it is perfect. Very difficult passage to do well. As for bowings I demand of myself that I should be able to reverse the bowings of any passage, that way I can see which is really better for me. If I come to the same conclusion of my teacher then I will really understand why the bowings were there to begin with. try playing bach cello suites with all the bowings reversed, you will always learn a ton about bach by doing that.
 
> = accent
() = Beat

---->------->------>-->
C-B-B--C-B-B--C-B-B--G
----()------()------()---
The musically pleasing phrase, "B B BG," comes out.

Now try this, also with the slurs written in the score:
>------->-------->------>
C-B-B---C-B-B---C-B-B--G
----()-------()-------()---

.

Could someone clarify the correct, or most commonly used bowing here? My score only has minimal markings for bowing.
 
the way I like to think of this excerpt is, begginning on the C natural, the basses and cellos are interrupting the flow of the music. While I agree that you should phrase towards the second B, you still need some emphasis on the appogiatura C to make it sound more interruptive. For this reason, I use the following bowing (given to me by Eric Larson of the Houston Symphony). D= down bow, U = up bow

D...U..D...U.U...D......D.....U..D...U..U...DUDU
CB, B CB, B CB, B G, GF#, E ED, C CB, ABCB....

Starting downbow emphasizes the C appogiatura JUST enough without taking away from the downbeat B. Switching to up bow on the final appogiatura leads perfectly into the climax of the phrase. The same happens for the descent into the running eighths. I do the same bowing on the parallel passage, starting on a A appogiatura.

What does everyone think of that bowing?