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Excessive volume at shows

DanielleMuscato

DanielleMuscato

Jun 19, 2004
4,782
83
42
Columbia, Missouri, USA
www.daniellemuscato.com
Disclosures
Endorsing Artist, Schroeder Cabinets
#1
I found this chart online ([Invalid or Expired Link Removed] ). It claims that continuous exposure to the following dB levels, for the amount of times listed, causes permanent hearing damage. Remember, dBs are measured on a logrithmic scale, so every 3 dB increase halves the exposure time necessary for permanent damage (every 10 dB increase is 10x the volume).

Continuous exposure to 85 db causes permanent damage after 8 hours.
Continuous exposure to 88 db causes permanent damage after 4 hours.
Continuous exposure to 91 db causes permanent damage after 2 hours.
Continuous exposure to 94 db causes permanent damage after 1 hour.
Continuous exposure to 97 db causes permanent damage after 30 min.
Continuous exposure to 100 db causes permanent damage after 15 min.
Continuous exposure to 103 db causes permanent damage after 7.5 min.
Continuous exposure to 106 db causes permanent damage after <4 min.
Continuous exposure to 109 db causes permanent damage after <2 min.
Continuous exposure to 112 db causes permanent damage after ~1 min.
Continuous exposure to 115 db causes permanent damage after ~30 seconds.

Exposure to dB levels above 120 dB cause immediate, permanent damage to hearing.

Further, in the United States, OSHA (Occupational Safety and Healthy Administration) requires that jobs which require exposure to SPLs above 85 dB (!) require hearing protection. So, on a construction site, if you see a guy working with a jackhammer (~130 dB), he must wear hearing protection to be in compliance with OSHA regulations.

-----------------

Okay, so does that mean that sound engineers, bartenders, servers, bouncers, etc, who are exposed to sound levels in excess of 110 dB for hours at a time (the same website describes a rock concert as ranging from 110 to 130 dB), have to wear ear protection? OSHA requires hearing protection for prolonged exposure over 85 dB. I don't want soundguys wearing ear-plugs while mixing at our shows for obvious reasons, but I don't think it's practical to require that we perform at under 85 dB, either (our drummer's kit, acoustically, is much louder than that just in the room).

Were shows always this loud (110-130 dB)? I know that hearing loss has long been an issue for musicians in the amplified age, but you can really have permanent hearing damage after 2 hours at 91 dB? We've played tons of 2 hour shows *way* louder than that...

What to do? I hate wearing ear-plugs live because it makes it so hard to hear the subtle details of what our drummer is doing, and it's that much harder to lock in with him (we play funky, jazzy, groove/jam in a trio, and play off of each other a *lot*).

Should we all switch to the Bose PAS, with an electronic drum kit & Line6 PODs? lol

Your thoughts & opinions, please.
 
#2
I've found that, no matter what statistics say, different humans react differently to loud noises. In other words, what bothers some, might not bother others----different thresholds.

I worry at times about permanent hearing damage, but on the other hand....I've been in and out of loud bands for hmm hmm years, and exposed myself (yikes) to loud clubs and concerts........and, my hearing is pretty darn good.

Remember when you were a kid, and went to your first rock concert, and your ears were ringing while you were laying in bed that night looking at the tour book you bought ?
That's damage.......but I think different people's ears mend differently, so generalizations can't really be made.

If someone doesn't want to wear ear protection (I don't regularly), at least they can minimize the damage by not sticking your head in the speakers, and keeping a healthy distance from the drum kit's cymbals and snare.

Sorry if I'm babbling....I'm at that tired but too lazy to go to bed time of the night.
 
#3
I've had two hearing tests in the last eight years, the first when I enlisted in the Air Force 8 years ago, and the last about a year ago right when I was about to get out. During that 8 year period, not only did I wear headphones for sometimes 8hrs/day for around 3 years, but I also played in several metal bands, and listened to a lot of loud music. My hearing scores last year were unchanged from the test 8 years ago. Maybe I'm just lucky. Who knows. But I never wear ear plugs.
 
#4
We practiced too loud. We played too loud. I would now consider what I was playing at the time when I was hot on playing and gigs to be insane. It couldn't be helped because the drummer was nuts and two guitar players (one playing an evil silverface Fender Twin) were db craziness. I was forced to fight back volume wise. I think I broke some ear parts in that time period. Surfers ear doesn't help either. The last show I played with those guys was volume massacre. Ruined everything and lead to a band fight.
 
#6
MoD_Scotty said:
I've had two hearing tests in the last eight years, the first when I enlisted in the Air Force 8 years ago, and the last about a year ago right when I was about to get out. During that 8 year period, not only did I wear headphones for sometimes 8hrs/day for around 3 years, but I also played in several metal bands, and listened to a lot of loud music. My hearing scores last year were unchanged from the test 8 years ago. Maybe I'm just lucky. Who knows. But I never wear ear plugs.
Click to expand...

I had perfect ear tests as well but I know what I hear just sounds sort of fuzzy. Muffled. Isn't human hearing mostly in the mid range? No wonder I love my recent P bass purchase. And 97 Thumb! No ear plugs? That is ,well, bad.
 
#7
uethanian said:
the real issue here is that for whatever reason, people think louder=better in a live situation.
Click to expand...

I don't think it's *people* who think that... actually, people seem to be pretty downright vocal about being AGAINST that idea... it's soundguys and musicians themselves who crank it up.

Our guitarist uses a boutique 50-watt 2x12, which is a lot louder than you'd think (it's considerably louder than his old Marshall 4x12), and I have a Schro 21012L (pushes 1000 watts RMS). Our drummer has a 6-piece rack-mounted huge mofo kit.

I know that we are loud, but playing softer isn't a realistic alternative - our drummer's kit is just a huge kit (he is actually considering buying another kit that is smaller for the volume reason), and we are all pretty much basing our volume off the drummer, at least on stage.

In a smaller club that we play fairly regularly (cap ~80), the soundguy doesn't even mic anything except for the vocals and kick drum, and it's still very, very loud in there, absolutely over 90 dB and probably closer to 110. When I go to see other bands in the same club, I wear earplugs and it is still too loud sometimes.

There has to be a solution to this. I don't want to "blame the soundguy" or "blame the drummer," but I'd be thrilled if we all just turned down. It's really a distribution issue more than a volume issue, I think.
 
#8
If the person next to you has to shout for you to hear what they're saying, then it's too loud... The barstaff and stewards and other employees of the venue should NOT be exposed to that level of noise full stop...

It's about time you lot over there had proper legislation to cover noise exposure and have it enforced...

the proprietor of the venue is ultimately responsible for any damage to the hearing of his employees and the paying public... he/she should be enforcing things... or else he/she will find him/herself liable for claims for damaged hearing.

Those OHSA regulations should apply to clubs etc.
 
#9
manicbassman, OSHA regs *do* apply to clubs, they are just not enforced there.

Maybe I will get one of those $60 SPL meters and bring it to our next show (along with the printed-out OSHA regulations), just to show the soundguy exactly how loud it is. I know that we could get more people out to our shows if we were not so loud... I've had a lot of people tell me that they would come see us more if it weren't so loud. I would *love* to be known as "that one band you can actually enjoy seeing live without going deaf," for our fans ears' sake as well as my own!

Any recommendations on SPL meters?

I would like to take a peek at what we'd sound like if our drummer used a smaller kit, and we could turn down proportionally to that. I think some concrete SPL numbers would go a long way toward making that happen.

What do you all do to protect your hearing? I know some people are saying that they are not affected by these types of SPLs... I find that hard to believe (maybe you have already lost some of your hearing?)... From what I understand of biology (my parents are both doctors and have been telling me ever since I started playing music to "wear ear plugs!") that your ears don't just "heal" like that - that's why the chart above says *permanent* hearing damage ;)
 
#10
waffle puzzle said:
I've found that, no matter what statistics say, different humans react differently to loud noises. In other words, what bothers some, might not bother others----different thresholds.
Click to expand...

+1, I have very sensitive hearing and loud concerts kill me. I've worn ear plugs for a while now, and they help a LOT. I still leave with slight ringing in my ears quite a bit, but it goes away after a few minutes/hours instead of days. The great thing about ER20s at least is you can just put the tips in and it only cuts off a bit of the highs (which causes a lot of the damage anyway). I think everyone should get used to ear plugs. I now keep mine on my keychain and whenever I'm in a loud pub/bar/club I simply pop 'em in. I can usually hear people better with them in too, especially if they speak right into my ear. It's hard to get rock concerts quiet (though the last couple I've went to were suprisingly quiet), and it's a lot easier to just get used to earplugs, imo!
 
#11
Dave Muscato said:
Remember, dBs are measured on a logrithmic scale, so every 3 dB increase halves the exposure time necessary for permanent damage
Click to expand...

Correct - because 3dB is twice the power (and approximately 1.4x the pressure). Note - this applies to amps - for a given speaker doubling your wattage will give you ~3dB increase in volume. This is not twice as loud - in fact depending on spectral content it may sound barely louder.

Dave Muscato said:
(every 10 dB increase is 10x the volume).
Click to expand...

10dB is 10x the power. ~3x the pressure. Somewhere between 6-10dB increase sounds twice as loud depending on person and spectral content.
 
#12
waffle puzzle said:
Remember when you were a kid, and went to your first rock concert, and your ears were ringing while you were laying in bed that night looking at the tour book you bought ?
That's damage.......
Click to expand...

Yep - and it's damage well before you get to the point of ringing also.

waffle puzzle said:
but I think different people's ears mend differently, so generalizations can't really be made.
Click to expand...

Nope - the ear cilia do not regenerate. Damage is cumulative and unrepairable, either by your body or medicine at this point. The finest cilia (and most easily damaged) are the ones which correspond to high frequencies - which is why babies can often hear above 20kHz and lots of adults can barely hear of 15kHz.
 
#13
waffle puzzle said:
I've found that, no matter what statistics say, different humans react differently to loud noises. In other words, what bothers some, might not bother others----different thresholds.

I worry at times about permanent hearing damage, but on the other hand....I've been in and out of loud bands for hmm hmm years, and exposed myself (yikes) to loud clubs and concerts........and, my hearing is pretty darn good.

Remember when you were a kid, and went to your first rock concert, and your ears were ringing while you were laying in bed that night looking at the tour book you bought ?
That's damage.......but I think different people's ears mend differently, so generalizations can't really be made.

If someone doesn't want to wear ear protection (I don't regularly), at least they can minimize the damage by not sticking your head in the speakers, and keeping a healthy distance from the drum kit's cymbals and snare.

Sorry if I'm babbling....I'm at that tired but too lazy to go to bed time of the night.
Click to expand...



+1


I have musician friends that are almost deaf. I have been playing in rock bands, going to rock shows and listening to loud music with occasional ear ringing for 35 years. I get my hearing tested every year and it is normal. :confused: I lie in bed at night and can hear every little sound in the house.
 
#14
Dave Muscato said:
I know that we are loud, but playing softer isn't a realistic alternative - our drummer's kit is just a huge kit (he is actually considering buying another kit that is smaller for the volume reason), and we are all pretty much basing our volume off the drummer, at least on stage.
Click to expand...

Ummm... the size of the kit shouldn't have anything to do with playing softer. If you don't hit the drum as hard, it'll be quieter - regardless of the size of the kit.

Want to be quieter - three options:

1) Drummer plays softer.
2) Drummer plays softer by using hotrods or brushes
3) Drum shield - http://www.drumcentral.com/drum_shields_02.htm
 
#15
The size of the kit certainly has something to do with the volume. I'm not a drummer, but a small jazz kit with a 20"x16" kick drum is going to be quieter than a rock kit with a 24"x"18" kick drum.

Of course, the drummer's technique is the #1 factor when it comes to volume, but a smaller kit will not be as loud as a bigger kit, all else being equal.

We have used drum shields in the past (bought ours from AJ Pro Percussion, who has great service, by the way), but we ditched them because we hated not being able to talk to the drummer - they dampen both ways, you know ;)
 
#16
Our drummer has an impressive arena-level kit in his basement, in its own alcove, up on a raised carpeted platform - even has small chimes; we haven't used it. When practicing and performing we use his electronic set, it is sooooo much more controlable, sounds better, can be modified at the flick of a switch, folds up for carrying (he puts it in the back seat of his Accord), etc. We hang a band banner on the front of it so its not all that noticable to the average audience that it is electronic, but the drum players in the audience are always fascinated by the sound and want to come on stage and check it out. There's nothing worse acoustically than flailing cymbols, IMHO; drives everyone's volume up.
 
#17
The size of the kit certainly has something to do with the volume. I'm not a drummer, but a small jazz kit with a 20"x16" kick drum is going to be quieter than a rock kit with a 24"x"18" kick drum.

Of course, the drummer's technique is the #1 factor when it comes to volume, but a smaller kit will not be as loud as a bigger kit, all else being equal.
Click to expand...

That's partially true, but my experience (as a drummer as well as a bass player and audience member) is that the snare and cymbals tend to be the loudest parts of the drumkit (and the most constantly hit, particularly the snare), so no matter how big or small the rest of your drums are, it's how much sound is being produced by those elements that matter the most when it comes to overall drumkit volume.
 
#18
Dave Muscato said:
The size of the kit certainly has something to do with the volume. I'm not a drummer, but a small jazz kit with a 20"x16" kick drum is going to be quieter than a rock kit with a 24"x"18" kick drum.
Click to expand...

It's going to be quieter IF you play it the same. You can play that big rock kit just as quietly as the smaller kit.

Dave Muscato said:
Of course, the drummer's technique is the #1 factor when it comes to volume, but a smaller kit will not be as loud as a bigger kit, all else being equal.
Click to expand...

True - and that is why it is the drummers job to play with dynamics and appropriate volume.
 
#20
I think a lot of time the problem is the sound guy. These guys work shows for years without any ear protection, gradually damage their ears, so everything gets turned up. The bass gradually gets turned up more, and then the musicians have to compensate by turning up the guitars and vocals so they can actually be heard. Pretty soon you have a loud bassy mess that you get at a lot of rock shows.

I've also seen bands turn up with ridiculously unnecessary rigs for gigs, which just adds to the problem...you know, you're working a medium sized bar, so they bring four gigantic PA columns and crank it up, because rock music is just supposed to be LOUD, you know? :P
 

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