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Double Bass How to Amp Upright in Big Church?

bdengler

bdengler

Jan 23, 2000
248
1
New Albany, Ohio
#1
Forgive me for making this posting if it's been covered before; but I need some immediate help. I'm in a church that seats 1,400. We have a GREAT sound system; a full-blown audio board and six stacks of speaker systems that hang from the ceiling (each speaker cabinet has two 12s, tweeters, etc.).

I need a simple solution in which I can plug into the soundboard but also have a local monitor.

I bow 80% percent of the pieces, so I need to get a good arco sound over the PA system (I play with violins and a cello that are miked). I had used a K&K mike with the little pre-amp that came with it; the sound engineer said it sounded fine a few months ago, but lately, the mike and/or pre-amp stopped working (yes, I changed the battery in the pre-amp). Before the K&K mike set up died, I added some Fishman's to the bass to run to a local monintor so that I could hear myself, primarily, when I used pizz. The Mike & Fishman combination caused a hum over the PA system.

I would appreciate any recommendation on how I could amplify or mike the instrument to get a good arco sound over the church's sound system, but still have something local so I could hear myself (the guitars amp themselves, the piano and organ sometimes drown me out).

I'm trying to avoid having so many pickups hooked up to my bass; when I had the K&K/Fishman combination, invariably, one of the quarter-inch sockets pop off during mass.

As for a "floor monitor," I own a SWR "Strawberry Blonde," and a small Galien-Kreuger combo (I think its a keyboard monitor).

Thanks for any assistance,

Brian
 
#2
When I play large venues like outdoor festivals, I typically just have the soundguy give me a dynamic mic like a Shure SM58 or similar. There are a million mic choices (and I have my own favorites like the Beyer M88), but the Shure SM's & Beta series mics are more "fire & forget" than other mics. If you are giving up control of the sound to someone else, I'd go with something that's hard to screw up. Condenser mics can sound good, but they are more fragile, more sensitve to bleed from nearby instruments, tend to feedback easier, etc. Just keep it simple with a proven dynamic mic.

If you can't hear yourself, you can either ask for some of the mic signal to come back in your monitor, and/or use a pickup and amp for your own monitoring (do not send this signal to the PA). Arco tends to not sound so good with most pickups, which is why you don't want it going to the house. EQ it however you need to make it sound ok to you, it won't affect the sound out front. If you can hear your mic in the monitor that would be better. BTW, I have found the Full Circle pickup to be pretty decent with the bow.

Does that help?
 
#3
bdengler said:
Forgive me for making this posting if it's been covered before; but I need some immediate help. I'm in a church that seats 1,400. We have a GREAT sound system; a full-blown audio board and six stacks of speaker systems that hang from the ceiling (each speaker cabinet has two 12s, tweeters, etc.).
Click to expand...

bdengler said:
I need a simple solution in which I can plug into the soundboard but also have a local monitor.
Click to expand...

bdengler said:
I bow 80% percent of the pieces, so I need to get a good arco sound over the PA system
Click to expand...

Brian,
You might want to take a look at the current issue of Bass Player.
It has a short article on the players who tour with Barbara Striesand.
For the section basses in her orchestra they use the Schertler Dyna B and a DPA microphone. Unfortunately, this is the most expensive gear on the market, but it sounds great. You might take a look at FDecks little preamp for DB it may solve a lot of your problems. If you have a impedance mismatch between you pickup and the PA Arco will sound god awful. Here is his web address. The device is very reasonable.
Invalid Link Removed The device is inserted in the signal chain between the pickup and the amp or PA.

bdengler said:
I'm trying to avoid having so many pickups hooked up to my bass; when I had the K&K/Fishman combination, invariably, one of the quarter-inch sockets pop off during mass.
Click to expand...


Unless you go with a large dynamic mic like Chris Fitzgerald and Uncle
Toad use, but once agian they mount the mic with "rubber bands" and locate it inside the bridge feet for optimum sound.

bdengler said:
As for a "floor monitor," I own a SWR "Strawberry Blonde," and a small Galien-Kreuger combo (I think its a keyboard monitor).
Click to expand...

The old GK MK 200 ( if that's what you have) probably had a 1 megohm input impedance so that's probably be the better choice, unfortunately the tweeter in that cabinet is too bright and brittle sounding for DB. I don't know that the input impedance is for the Strawberry Blonde.

bdengler said:
Thanks for any assistance,

Brian
Click to expand...
 
#5
Jason Sypher said:
AMT mic right into the board....little bit in the monitor. Works like a charm. Amen!

Jason
Click to expand...


You folks are fantastic! I was hoping to avoid the AMT expense, but, I assume it may be worth the money if (a) it's a good bass mike and (b) it won't pick up all the surrounding sound. I used a Shure last Christmas (we wrapped it with a scarf on to the tailpiece) and it worked fine, but it wasn't the SM58 model. I thought the version I had was more directional.

I agree with all of you (and the sound engineer agreed) that a mike would sound best with arco over the system. I have a Schertler Dyna B pick up, and what I may do is simply run that into a small, stand alone amp. The fact that the pickup will be away from the mike and bridge may help avoid some of the hum problem I had with the Fishman.

Unfortunately, we do not have any PA system monitors for our choir and "mini-orchestra," so I'll be required to use my own amp. Usually, I completely turn down the amp when I bow, becuse the bass is loud enough. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think it would be a good idea to run the mike into the amp and then into the PA for feedback and other impedence reasons; it seemed we had the best luck if the mike ran right into the PA system (and it's preamps).

Best regards, Brian
 
#6
Brian,

I think you've got it right. Lots of people seem to have success doing what was outlined above - run your pickup (only) to your amp to use as a monitor, and then run a mic straight to the PA, not through your amp.

But before you convince yourself you gotta have an AMT, check this out. I think this is along the lines of what Ric was alluding to earlier. Most of the people who posted there are talking about jazz pizz apps I think, but it could still carry over I think in large part to your situation.

FWIW, I have used the K&K Golden Trinity or Golden Bullet mic, the AMT, and a Beyer M 88 (thanks again larry). IMO, the Beyer sounds better to me than the AMT (more open, natural, and 3-D), and I can go louder w/ it before feeding back (through my amp). That's a big advantage in my gigging situations. Plus it costs less than the AMT. There are other good mic choices out there as well. For example, I think Lynn Seaton uses a Shure Beta 56. There's a short thread here if you're interested. Search a bit in this forum too if you like. Your tastes and/or needs re: mics may vary, just relating my experiences.
 
#7
I haven't tried those other mics but I will say this. No matter what mic an engineer has tried to put on my bass in live performance (I usually just let them because they've never heard of an AMT and frankly they don't give a damn!) they always use my mic! It's become kind of a band joke! I've also never run it into an amp but I considered the Solstice with a David Gage pick-up and my AMT for that very application.
 
#8
Jason Sypher said:
I haven't tried those other mics but I will say this. No matter what mic an engineer has tried to put on my bass in live performance (I usually just let them because they've never heard of an AMT and frankly they don't give a damn!) they always use my mic! It's become kind of a band joke! I've also never run it into an amp but I considered the Solstice with a David Gage pick-up and my AMT for that very application.
Click to expand...

The Solstice is cool because it allows you to route things almost any way you want. Send a blend of the mic/pickup to the monitors, send the mic to the house, send the pickup to your amp all at the same time if you want. And it sounds good. The only real drawback is the phantom power is only 18v instead of 48v. Not sure what your AMT needs.

I'll first say that I've never used an AMT, but I'm with Bolo - I think there are way cheaper options that may be better. The AMT just seems like an average small condenser mic with a preset EQ filter built in to it somewhere and a fancy mount. Maybe I'm wrong - again I have not used one.
 
#9
I did a bunch of large venue stuff recently. I just went the easy road and asked the sound guy for a 58, 57, or the like, wrapped it in a hand towel and shoved it behind the tailpiece. I heard lotsa good things from folks in the crowd.

I used my pickup and amp for monitoring and sent the mic to the house.

I agonized over this too and I just (once again) pushed the easy button and have been pretty happy.
 
#10
larry said:
I'll first say that I've never used an AMT, but I'm with Bolo - I think there are way cheaper options that may be better. The AMT just seems like an average small condenser mic with a preset EQ filter built in to it somewhere and a fancy mount. Maybe I'm wrong - again I have not used one.
Click to expand...
Maybe several of us are all wet, but many TBers with way more experience than moi have switched from using the AMT to less expensive dynamic mics. That's in large part what that whole big thread I linked to above was all about. Shures, the Beyer, Sennheisers, Heils ...

Plus you can use many of these dynamic mics for things besides just DB, if the need arises.

I don't want to sound like I am trying to trash the AMT hard. I haven't sold mine (yet). It is a unique design and a pleasing sound. I like the long gooseneck especially since it allows beacoup flexibility in terms of mic placement. The traditional rubber band / towel spot between the bridge legs just isn't the optimal spot for a mic on my bass, to my ears. That's one big reason why I liked using the AMT for a while, and also why I bought an H-clamp from ExplorAudio for the Beyer.
 
#11
I've done some experimenting with little success. Your thoughts would be appreciated. I've had three pickups go bad on me, including a K&K mike (probably a connection shorted out). I tried a Schertler Dyna-B through a preamp and on to the board and the sound engineer said it was the worst sound that he ever heard from my bass. Yesterday, I tried a Shure 57 strapped to the tailpiece. The sound engineer said I sounded "unclear" and "lost." I think the problem is that there's so much sound in our group, that I get lost in the mix (we have two guitars with pick-ups running on to the board, an amplified piano, cello, three violins, two flutes, etc.). So, I'm getting exasperated. I think what I need is a mike & pizzo combo that I can mix; that is, ramp up the mike when I bow (but keep a little bit of the pizzo for fundamentals) and then ramp up the pizzo for pizz to get that percussive sound. I would need to run the pre-amp into the sound board, and probably into a local monitor, which will be my Gallien-Kreuger MBE-150E. Or, I guess, I could run out of the GK into the board. What combo should I use as a mike, pizzo and pre-amp? I have my eye on the AMT, but I don't think there's an AMT pre-amp that also works as a blender. I own the standard Fishman pick-ups, although I wouldn't mind getting the K&K mini-max or whatever it's called. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks, Brian
 
#13
bdengler said:
I tried a Schertler Dyna-B through a preamp and on to the board and the sound engineer said it was the worst sound that he ever heard from my bass. Yesterday, I tried a Shure 57 strapped to the tailpiece. The sound engineer said I sounded "unclear" and "lost."
Click to expand...

Maybe you need a new engineer. I've heard both of these systems from the audience and the basses sounded really good.
 
#14
bdengler said:
I've done some experimenting with little success. Your thoughts would be appreciated. I've had three pickups go bad on me, including a K&K mike (probably a connection shorted out). I tried a Schertler Dyna-B through a preamp and on to the board and the sound engineer said it was the worst sound that he ever heard from my bass.
Click to expand...

Brian,
Are you using the Schertler Pre A II to send the signal to the board?
If you aren't that could be the reason you're having problems. Rick Jones of Acoustic Image told me once that the Schertler is designed to work specifically with their pre amp and even with all the bells and whistles on the Acoustic Image you still have to use the Pre A II to get it to sound. It's expensive


bdengler said:
Yesterday, I tried a Shure 57 strapped to the tailpiece. The sound engineer said I sounded "unclear" and "lost." I think the problem is that there's so much sound in our group, that I get lost in the mix (we have two guitars with pick-ups running on to the board, an amplified piano, cello, three violins, two flutes, etc.).
Click to expand...

Brian,
If you are working with a competent and committed sound engineer then that should not be a problem, but sometime, unfortunately it is. Most of the folks that use one are mixing the Shure with a pickup. My educated guess is that the guitars are probably competing for your frequency range.

bdengler said:
So, I'm getting exasperated. I think what I need is a mike & pizzo combo that I can mix; that is, ramp up the mike when I bow (but keep a little bit of the pizzo for fundamentals) and then ramp up the pizzo for pizz to get that percussive sound. I would need to run the pre-amp into the sound board, and probably into a local monitor, which will be my Gallien-Kreuger MBE-150E. Or, I guess, I could run out of the GK into the board. What combo should I use as a mike, pizzo and pre-amp? I have my eye on the AMT, but I don't think there's an AMT pre-amp that also works as a blender. I own the standard Fishman pick-ups, although I wouldn't mind getting the K&K mini-max or whatever it's called. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks, Brian
Click to expand...

Brian,
AMT's are very expensive as you probably already know. MY first suggestion would be to try and borrow one and try it first. At this point we all start to "grab at straws' when we can't get the sound we want, believe me I know, I've been there. Frankly, I'd go with the simplest solution that works. If you decide to run the GK into the board then make sure that whatever pickup you decide to use matches with the 1 megohm input impedance of the 150 MBS. In my experience if you have a "mismatch" the direct signal to the board will sound worse than the sound coming from the amp. I would probably reccommend a Full Circle for this situation, but it has to be mounted and installed on your bass and you have to get used to using it.

Ric:)
 
#15
Folks, thank so much for your comments. As to the Schertler, I have a Schertler pre-amp but it needs repair (battery wire is split and it's too tight for me to solder it). I ran the Schertler into a tube pre-amp designed for mikes and it didn't sound good. I never had luck with Schertler, even when I was using it with the Schertler pre-amp, whether into an amp, PA system or otherwise. No one ever liked the sound.

I would prefer to use the Shure, because (a) we've had success with it before and (b) I already own it and (c) Bob Gollihur is selling the H-Clamp in the US, which I probably could use to mount the mike. I'm afraid to buy the AMT and find out it won't work on our system. We have two inputs for the bass on the sound board (one for "accoustic," the mike, and the other for "electric bass").

We do not have "real" sound engineers. They're just members of the choir who were trained to run the sound boards. We had a real sound engineer who set up our system and he's gone. So I really need to take a "seat of the pants" approach.

To me, the cheapest approach would be to use the Full Circle and Shure mike, since I own both of them. I don't mind investing in another preamp and simply finding a way to blend the Shure and Full Circle (I really don't want the sound person to mix because they're to use to simply turning the board on, adjust the settings and letting it rip). My only other alternative is to run the Shure into the PA and Full Circle into the PA on two different inputs and hope the sound person mixes them right (very dangerous!).

Thanks for all your help, Brian
 
#16
Try the Shure mic again but don't connect it to the bass. Just get a small stand and point it straight at the bass, probably around the bridge.

Weird things can happen when you get the mic that close. If you have it placed vertically on the tailpiece, then you're not even pointing it at the bass. Directional mics can have weird resonances when sound reaches them off-axis (from the side or rear), and they can have severe proximity effect (excess low end) when placed too close. Sounds like you may have both problems. Sometimes this is no big deal and it works fine. Other times (usually), not so much.

If the mic is in front pointed at the bass (a great spot is pointed right at the bridge, maybe an inch or two in front), it's going to sound like your bass. If it's boomy, raise the mic higher or back away. The only concern is if the instruments around you are too loud and bury you in your own mic. There will always be some bleed, but it should be manageable by setting up with a little distance between you and the louder instruments (perhaps the soundman thinks there should be no bleed? It's impossible not to have some - he's got to deal with it). Don't mic the F-hole of course.

In summary:
Full Circle only to your amp, mic only to the house (get a little mic back in your monitor if poss.). Point the mic at the bass, but not too close. This really should work.
 
#17
bdengler said:
The sound engineer said I sounded "unclear" and "lost." I think the problem is that there's so much sound in our group, that I get lost in the mix (we have two guitars with pick-ups running on to the board, an amplified piano, cello, three violins, two flutes, etc.). So, I'm getting exasperated. I think what I need is a mike & pizzo combo that I can mix; that is, ramp up the mike when I bow (but keep a little bit of the pizzo for fundamentals) and then ramp up the pizzo for pizz to get that percussive sound.
Click to expand...

If you do want to blend the signal yourself, the Dtar Solstice blender is a great piece of gear for around three hundred clams (I think).

Keep in mind the acoustics in the church may just stink really bad and nothing will solve the problem...
 
#18
larry said:
If you do want to blend the signal yourself, the Dtar Solstice blender is a great piece of gear for around three hundred clams (I think).

Keep in mind the acoustics in the church may just stink really bad and nothing will solve the problem...
Click to expand...

Larry, thanks. Your probably right about the acoustics in the church; I used the same Shure 57 at a mass on Saturday with much smaller combo (two guitars that were on microphones, one flute, one violin, one piano and me, all on microphones) and the sound "engineer" said the bass sounded great; but Sunday I played with a much lounder, bigger group and apparently was buried.

What I'm thinking is using the H-Clamp that's now available in the US...that way I can position the Shure to point directly at the bridge as you suggest above and it will stay put no matter how I move the bass. Any thoughts on such an approach?

Brian
 
#20
larry said:
If the mic is in front pointed at the bass (a great spot is pointed right at the bridge, maybe an inch or two in front), it's going to sound like your bass. If it's boomy, raise the mic higher or back away. The only concern is if the instruments around you are too loud and bury you in your own mic. There will always be some bleed, but it should be manageable by setting up with a little distance between you and the louder instruments (perhaps the soundman thinks there should be no bleed? It's impossible not to have some - he's got to deal with it). Don't mic the F-hole of course.

In summary:
Full Circle only to your amp, mic only to the house (get a little mic back in your monitor if poss.). Point the mic at the bass, but not too close. This really should work.
Click to expand...
Brian, I could be all wet, but if larry's suggestions above don't work, I am not sure the H-clamp will either, for the reasons he's listed. So it might be worth experimenting w/ the mic on a stand, near the tip of the bridge pointing at the bass just like he said to help you decide whether or not you want to (or even need to) purchase the clamp. Yeah you have more freedom of movement w/ the H-clamp, and I really like mine, but if the other instruments around you are as he said overpowering your mic, even the clamp won't solve the problem unfortunately.
 

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