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Power amps. Light vs. heavy..tone difference?

Crabby

Crabby

Dec 22, 2004
4,404
410
#1
I have an Eden Navigator and a 50 pound Tapco Juice "led sled" power amp. The amp puts out 1400 watts at 4 ohms bridged and sounds pretty good for an inexpensive power amp. But I am having a hard time with the weight and would like to find a power amp that sounds at least as good but weighs a lot less.

I noticed the QSC PLX1804 is only 13 pounds but cant be bridged. It seems to put out a lot of power though on paper. how do these lightweight amps sound compared to the heavier versions?

I like the idea of a matching Eden amp but I'm looking at $1200 Canadian for a WT1250. They still weigh about 23 pounds.

Give me some ideas for a lightweight, powerful and still great sounding power amp!!!
 
#2
The Eden power amp sounds amazing on bass, it has a sound rather than just making the signal louder. All PA amps sound pretty much the same, and the Nav is capable of lots of output, so just go with a QSC PLX if you're going to go that way.

I'd go with the Eden, personally. Or a used WT-1000.
 
#5
Just FYI the "does lightweight sound different than heavyweight" discussion is a guaranteed firestarter. It's in the same argument-inducing category as "tube vs. solid state" and "is a power conditioner needed".

From an engineering standpoint, all PA power amps should sound exactly like whatever preamp you feed them, i.e. with no audible coloration, rolloff, or weakness in the lows/highs etc. Yet many, many people are convinced that they hear a difference. Also the Eden, as a power amp marketed for bass, may be "pre-voiced" to emphasize the lows and low mids. That doesn't mean other PA power amps are weaker in the lows, just that they have no preset EQ bias.
 
#6
bongomania said:
From an engineering standpoint, all PA power amps should sound exactly like whatever preamp you feed them, i.e. with no audible coloration, rolloff, or weakness in the lows/highs etc.
Click to expand...

Just to clarify this point, there is a certain quality threshold below which this may not be the case. If someone is claiming to give you 1200 watts at 10 lbs for 200 bucks I would expect some 'personality' from the amp. When you get past the toys though, a real power amp should be tonally neutral.
 
#7
PLX (1802) 21lbs is the way to go. I've been doing the pre-power amp thing for about 15 yrs now. I started with a QSC USA 850, then a Carvin DPC1000 and now I'm using a QSC Plx 1202 and I couldn't really hear much if any difference. Everybody has their favorite bass sound, mine is a tube pre-amp with about 1000+ clean watts through a full range speaker.

ps: I like smaller SS amps and tube amps too. Bout the only bass gear I don't like is what sounds bad or breaks down.
 
#8
Stewart World, QSC, even old Peaveys, I've had 'em and they all have sounded great to my ears. To echo sentiments above, yeah YOU may hear a tad bit of diff in your bedroom, but considering you can get 2 QSC's or Stewys in your rack for what a Crest CA series weighs, it's just up to you if you want the added weight/hassle. Some do, and more power to 'em! :)
 
#9
I don't mean to come off the point here but as a pro engineer for 8 years or so now, i beleive there is a marked difference in the tonal qualities of different companies amplifiers, heavy or light. I had to use a Cloud CV1000 power amp on the horns in the PA after the Chevin (which sounded ok) amp gave up the gohst one night. The Cloud sounded a little harsher and a little "grainier" than the Chevin so we decided to change it for a C-Audio RA2001. There was certainly a difference in quality as the tops never sounded sweeter.
Just for the record, the Horns are quality B&C 2" compression drivers as fitted in Yamaha F15 top packs and are used in biamp mode. The are operated using BW 18 dB/oct filters. The only adjustment made was the gain setting on the X-over to suit diferent powers of amplifier.
Another exampe in the same veune was a change of amp on the low end too. We used to have Carver PT2400 driving the lows (Its mine now and it will be used for bass guitar!). They have lots of power and plenty of low end but they didn't sound quite as clever as the Crown Macrotech 3600 we replaced it with. In terms of power, they're both quite similar but the crown just seems to have better "control" with the lows. I wouldn't have said the carver was any much louder or quieter than the crown. The Carver doesn't lose out on any bottom end or have trouble operating at these levels; it never seemed to struggle but the crown seems to have a more natural way of amplifying the signal and controlling the loudspeaker.
The subs themselves are 1x18" horn loaded enclosures measuring 3' x 3' x 2' and when measured with a spectrum analyser are good down to about 36 hz. They're used between 35-95 hz.
I'm aware of the numerous different factors between different companies amps such as slew rates (one reason the C-Audio sounds so good maybe), different power supply types / design, different output device specs, transformer quality etc. The list could go on forever. I'll conclude by saying whilst there Should be no difference between PA pro amplifiers, there certainly Is. I'm no Hifi buff or audio critic but i am a sound engineer and personally, i can hear a difference.
 
#10
VtypeV4 said:
I don't mean to come off the point here but as a pro engineer for 8 years or so now, i beleive there is a marked difference in the tonal qualities of different companies amplifiers, heavy or light. I had to use a Cloud CV1000 power amp on the horns in the PA after the Chevin (which sounded ok) amp gave up the gohst one night. The Cloud sounded a little harsher and a little "grainier" than the Chevin so we decided to change it for a C-Audio RA2001. There was certainly a difference in quality as the tops never sounded sweeter.
Just for the record, the Horns are quality B&C 2" compression drivers as fitted in Yamaha F15 top packs and are used in biamp mode. The are operated using BW 18 dB/oct filters. The only adjustment made was the gain setting on the X-over to suit diferent powers of amplifier.
Another exampe in the same veune was a change of amp on the low end too. We used to have Carver PT2400 driving the lows (Its mine now and it will be used for bass guitar!). They have lots of power and plenty of low end but they didn't sound quite as clever as the Crown Macrotech 3600 we replaced it with. In terms of power, they're both quite similar but the crown just seems to have better "control" with the lows. I wouldn't have said the carver was any much louder or quieter than the crown. The Carver doesn't lose out on any bottom end or have trouble operating at these levels; it never seemed to struggle but the crown seems to have a more natural way of amplifying the signal and controlling the loudspeaker.
The subs themselves are 1x18" horn loaded enclosures measuring 3' x 3' x 2' and when measured with a spectrum analyser are good down to about 36 hz. They're used between 35-95 hz.
I'm aware of the numerous different factors between different companies amps such as slew rates (one reason the C-Audio sounds so good maybe), different power supply types / design, different output device specs, transformer quality etc. The list could go on forever. I'll conclude by saying whilst there Should be no difference between PA pro amplifiers, there certainly Is. I'm no Hifi buff or audio critic but i am a sound engineer and personally, i can hear a difference.
Click to expand...
When it comes to sound reproducers, yes different brands of power amps do sound somewhat different. The Crown Macrotech is, in my opinion, still the best sounding power amp. I'll never forget the time I played at the Alabama theater and seeing the wall of Macrotech's they use for the house PA. But, we're talking about a bass rig and not a big 3-4-5 way PA system. Using a 5,000 watt Macrotech in a bass rig is a lot like plowing your garden with a bull dozer.
 
#11
I could also hear differences until I gain matched and blind A/B/X tested, at which point they all melted away. The X part of the test wasn't even really necessary. When gain matched, the amps sound the same. There are lots of anecdotal stories out there about the sound of amps, but they basically never include gain matching, which turns out to be the critical issue.

Gain match, keep the amps well away from clipping, and test blind ... my guess is you'll say they all sound the same and pick the one with the best price, reliability reputation, and feature set.
 
#12
I just sold off my PLX 2402 as I really don't have a use for it. Prior to that I paired it with a Navigator and I can recommend that setup highly. THe PLX's aren't quite as light as the PLX II's - but they're built like tanks, have a great, practical feature set, run cool and in the case of the 2402 - kick serious volume out the cab as it were ...
 
#13
Running sound though a variety of brands and configs in amp racks, once gain structure and crossovers and section balances were set up properly and bands began blasting I never found that any amps of appropriate wattage for the loads they were driving made enough difference tonally to really worry about.
 
#14
pickles said:
I could also hear differences until I gain matched and blind A/B/X tested, at which point they all melted away. The X part of the test wasn't even really necessary. When gain matched, the amps sound the same. There are lots of anecdotal stories out there about the sound of amps, but they basically never include gain matching, which turns out to be the critical issue.

Gain match, keep the amps well away from clipping, and test blind ... my guess is you'll say they all sound the same and pick the one with the best price, reliability reputation, and feature set.
Click to expand...
I could never hear much difference in those a/b/x whatever tests either. For me it is more like a long term thing. I can remember when we were using some PV DECCA amps in a 4 way JBL system. They were on the high mids and horns. One side of the horn amp went down and we had to press an old Phase Linear 400 into service. After about a set and a half we all started to notice a sweetness to the high end that we hadn't had before. We also noticed it on the breaks when we ran audio through the system. But it was a gradual thing and not an a/b/x sort of thing. I think you need to (live with) an amp for a while to really evaluate the sound. (jmho)
 
#15
greenboy said:
Running sound though a variety of brands and configs in amp racks, once gain structure and crossovers and section balances were set up properly and bands began blasting I never found that any amps of appropriate wattage for the loads they were driving made enough difference tonally to really worry about.
Click to expand...
Absolutely true. Not enough to go to the trouble of messing with it. There are so many other variables that play a much larger part in sound quality than the brand of the power amp. But, then again, we are discussing the sonic differences of power-amps.
 
#16
Great discussion so far. So from what I'm hearing, my cheapo Tapco power amp should be able to sound just as good as any other brand. The cheap price is mainly due to the heavy weight and possibly cheaper build quality?

I am really looking to go light here. 20 pounds would be ok but the 13 pound QSC is really appealing. I have read a lot about the Stewart amps but have never seen one in my neck of the woods. I am used to having lots and lots of available headroom so I really don't want to compromise in tone and headroom.

Are there any other recomendations for a lightweight power amp?
 
#17
Any QSC PLX series, later QSC Powerlight series, all Stewart Worlds but the 1.2 which seems to overheat easily and not handle difficult loads, Crown XTi series, Peavey DPC-1400X, Acoustic Image Focus SA, might have missed some true lightweights like the Soundtech which I've never been around.

For midweights the Carvin DCM1500 and up seems to be a good one. There's lots of other midweights I've used that seemed to work well, too, and I'm sure I've missed some.
 
#18
Crabby said:
Great discussion so far. So from what I'm hearing, my cheapo Tapco power amp should be able to sound just as good as any other brand. The cheap price is mainly due to the heavy weight and possibly cheaper build quality?
Click to expand...

Well, I don't know about that.

What we're really saying is all the pro-level amps sound the same. Crest CA, Crown Macrotech, QSC PLX, Carvin, Stewart, etc ...

Can you find specs for the Tapco to compare against the top quality amps.
 

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