Making a solid body instrument has more to do with basic woodworking than luthiery

LedBelli Bass said:

"Making a solid body instrument has more to do with general woodworking than with luthiery . . . "

That was a statement made in another thread in the context of advising a newbie. I thought it very interesting.

So . . . forum:

Does building a solid body stringed instrument (a bass) constitute legitimate luthiery, or is it general woodworking?

Do we need to rename our corner of the universe here?

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JMHO, if the tools have a plug, its general woodworking.

I think having general woodworking skills will definitely help, but,
Building and instrument is no question different than:
Framing a house or general home improvement, maybe the beginnings of an instrument (cutting the wood to size, etc).
But It starts to transition more towards furniture work. Beyond that, it becomes a craft of it's own before completion.
If it was just general woodworking, why would there be so many specialty tools, specifically for luthierie?

That's just my .02

It depends on the bass. Bolt-on, pre made neck? Set neck, shaped by hand? too many variables. I'd say that anything past cutting the body to size is luthierie.

A strick definition of a luthier (IMHO) is that of a craftsman who works on one or a small number of instrument at a time and concentrates on the results.

But it's true that building a solid body instruments(ie electric bass or guitar) is more woodworking. I am even thinking about making a custom body for a used cheap bass I'd pick one day from Craig's.

It seems to require good tools, space, good planning and basic woodworking skills to do that (which all of those who did the same thing seem to confirm).

Now, designing a neck, putting it together, placing the frets, I think is a bit more advanced woodworking and borderline luthiery.

A definitely, building a Hofner Bass, a 4001 or a Les Paul from scratch, that is luthiery, no doubt in my mind.

From my woodworking years I have noticed four distinct areas (in order of difficulty):

Carpentry - These are the skill you would use to build a house; strong, sturdy, and meant to last a lifetime.

Stage Carpentry - These are the skills that you would use to build a set; cheap, quick, and meant to look good from fifty feet.

Fine Woodworking - These are the skills needed to build a heirloom; meticulous, high quality, and tight tolerances.

Lutherie - These are the skill needed to build instrument; meticulous, high quality, and the ability to give a piece of wood/metal a soul.

There are plenty of people that will think that if you are good at one you will be good at any. I cannot disagree any more. The guy building sets at the high school play has no clue what the goals are and how they differ from home building.

There are also a lot of woodworkers that think they can build instruments yet have no idea how to give that chunk of wood a soul.

I can call myself a luthier and it doesn't mean a thing. However, if you play one of my instruments and you feel the connection then you will call me a luthier and that will mean everything

I've read different interviews with some renowned bass-makers and I was surprised at how many of them were uncomfortable with the label of "luthier". I think it was Ken Smith who suggested that he was not in the same league as a luthier because he had never carved a scroll. I recently read an article which quoted Rob Green from Status who said that he considered himself a designer more than a luthier. I don't know...

I've got to agree that it does, but there are also areas where different knowledge is needed, electronics mechanics ect.

bass12 said:

I've read different interviews with some renowned bass-makers and I was surprised at how many of them were uncomfortable with the label of "luthier". I think it was Ken Smith who suggested that he was not in the same league as a luthier because he had never carved a scroll. I recently read an article which quoted Rob Green from Status who said that he considered himself a designer more than a luthier. I don't know...

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I have to agree with this 100% the word Luthier is used too loose sometimes. I consider myself a builder, once I've mastered the art of building both solid and acoustic instruments it'll be a different story.

mikeyswood said:

Lutherie - These are the skill needed to build instrument; meticulous, high quality, and the ability to give a piece of wood/metal a soul.

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Beautifully said ! In my case Ill only call myself a luthier once I pluck the strings of my first acoustic... which should be starting in the upcoming months ! I do believe there is a certain 'science' to understand in acoustic building, guys like Ignacio Fleta and obviously Antonio de Torres understood some things (like brace placements, thicknesses at certain spots) way beyond which tools to use... Acoustic instruments depend entirely on wood selection and use (strings and bows are also in there) Lutherie comes from the word luth, also known as an Oud, still used today in Northern Africa and Central Asia. The early luthiers must have worked endless nights before figuring out which woods to use, that quartersawn is more stable....and it goes on. I think us modern solid-bodied electronic-filled builders owe tham a lot !

I've met few (very few) guitar and bass builders to whom I would apply the "L" word.

Usage or non-usage of power tools has exactly nothing to do with it. Stradivarii and Guarneri would have used them if they had them, I would bet. Anyone (well, almost anyone) who's trying to realistically make a living building instruments will use them.

(That reminds me of a cabinetmaker friend of mine who playfully scoffed at the idea of sandpaper, saying that "real" furniture builders only needed a cabinet scraper....

In my book, that "real" furniture maker will be the most impressive guy on the welfare line.)

This has everything to do with the accumulation, synthesis, and application of knowledge. People like Ken Parker, Mike Tobias, and Uli Teuffel are unbelievably interesting to talk to about guitars, but here's the more relevant part - they know and understand a whole hell of a lot about other subjects and disciplines that are related.

Mike Tobias was/is a classical guitar builder. Solidbody basses are a successful application of those skills.
He knows about where the woods come from, how they grow, and all sorts of other ephemera. He has a strong grasp of the history, the engineering, and the musical side of guitarbuilding. He is much more than a solidbody bass assembler, which is precisely why his solidbody basses are so damn good.

Ken Parker is a machinist and industrial engineer.
The Fly guitars were one result. His 3lb, $30k archtops are another. Ken can talk intelligently about almost anything. He knows materials like few people I've ever met. This breadth of knowledge comes together as instruments that very few other people could make.

Uli Teuffel is a serious industrial designer. He designed and patented a plating process that is used on every new Audi that's made. He's also a very serious and knowledgeable modern art connoisseur...look at his guitars, and that becomes clear enough.

The point is - all these people are incredibly badass craftsmen. However, they make my "luthier" list because their formidable woodworking skills are secondary to, and in service of, a level of understanding and perspective that allows them to make conscious and informed decisions.

I've been building for 8 years now, and have built (completely or mostly) about 300 guitars, and set up closer to 500. I'm not there yet.

I guess what I'm trying to say is this: having the skill set is not what makes a 'luthier'. That's what makes a luthier's employee, maybe, or a technician.

Luthierie is an art, and mastering the technique of woodworking, even on an advanced level, does not make you a luthier any more than mastering calligraphy would make you a great writer.

The difference lies in the amount of information the builder can gather, process, analyze, combine, and apply to the piece, and the extent to which they can use that knowledge to control the result.

(Bored yet? I was an English major. Sorry.)

Cheers,
Martin

does chambering count as non-solidbody? i think there are different types of luthiering. i don't think i have seen any people who regularly build classical, as well as electric instruments. it is different, but in many ways are the same, like getting correct action, rounding a neck by hand, all the math work to figure out what goes where, how woods, and nonwoods will affect the instrument differently, working hard to construct a solid (i don't mean like solid body) built playable instrument, with its own one-of-a-kindness, that is worthy of making music.

another thing that sets it apart from gereral basic furniture building, is that we cant cut corners, nail anything to anything, hide it (or not) and call it good. we can't put a little glue on and throw in some nails. we have to make sure everything is quality, from strong glue joint, to everthing being perfectly centered, or it will suffer/fail. these things need to be bult right so they can handle the string tension, not warp, and last the potential wear and abuse that happens from just using it.

lu·thi·er Listen to the pronunciation of luthier
Pronunciation:
\ˈlü-tē-ər, -thē-ər\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
French, from luth lute (from Middle French lut)
Date:
1879

: one who makes stringed musical instruments (as violins or guitars)



Yeah, I do that...



As far as the topic goes, I didn't have to learn many (any?) new woodworking techniques to go from building cabinets and furniture to building solid body basses. I'll buy that there are similar techniques applied.

I also agree that there is much more to building than just the wood work. I have some education and experience with electronics. I had to acquire and learn to use a number of luthier tools. Learning how to implement a truss rod was, and probably still is, the trickiest part of the process for me.

a luthier, as judged by instrument building peers goes, is one of those rare craftsmen amongst craftsmen who are able to create a great instrument from the faint whisper of a concept. I reserve this for the likes of those who fully grasp the materials, methods, and tools used to craft a musical instrument from rough materials.

a luthier knows when it's best to use a draw knife instead of a spokeshave when crafting a neck, knows when the materials on-hand require a 3-piece neck instead of simply making a 1-piece flatsawn neck (hint: it has more to do than just the physical dimensions of the lumber in the shop) ... in contrast, a builder/technician simply understands how to repeatedly make a finely detailed neck to specific dimensions

sorry to deflate your egos guys/gals, but on this board I don't recall more than one or two true luthiers ever gracing our presence - but I do see a lot of people who erroneously regard themselves more highly than they should, who label themselves what they are not, and who still have a lot of hands-on experience to gain before even considering themselves a knowledgable technician let alone a bonafide journeyman craftsman.

sorry if you're offended, but reality doesn't always play nice with the human ego.

call yourself whatever title you wish - your work speaks louder than any self applied label you can print up in bold, flashy fonts. every true luthier I know has never applied the term to themselves - it has always been a honorable recognition of consistent achievement applied by peers who themselves have instruments of consistently exceptional characteristics and quality

am I a luthier? no ... I consider myself a skilled technician and builder who is able to craft high quality instruments of tight tolerances from rough lumber. someday I will become a skilled craftsman. and if I continue to hone my materials knowledge and tool skills maybe someday I too will become recognized by the instrument building greats as a true lutheir

all the best,

R

Stone Age said:

lu·thi·er Listen to the pronunciation of luthier
Pronunciation:
\ˈlü-tē-ər, -thē-ər\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
French, from luth lute (from Middle French lut)
Date:
1879

: one who makes stringed musical instruments (as violins or guitars)


Yeah, I do that...



As far as the topic goes, I didn't have to learn many (any?) new woodworking techniques to go from building cabinets and furniture to building solid body basses. I'll buy that there are similar techniques applied.

I also agree that there is much more to building than just the wood work. I have some education and experience with electronics. I had to acquire and learn to use a number of luthier tools. Learning how to implement a truss rod was, and probably still is, the trickiest part of the process for me.

Click to expand...

i think the difference between woodworking and lutherie is general woodworking is the craft of constructing and shaping a project or object from wood and lutherie would be the implementation of guitar techniques, processes and materials upon this project or object. i was a cabinet maker in a previous life and while doing this i made a few guitar bodies. they were easy to fashion as i had the requisite wood skills and tools and just did it. i could just as easily make a guitar body today but i never attemted a neck. i could shape the neck and add a fingerboard, but the truss rod placement or frets intimidate me enough that i wouldn't waste the time, money or effort without additional practice or instruction. but then i'm just a wood worker and not a luthier. then to get into the world of acoustic instruments and repair, forget it. a good luthier knows all kinds of skills that are beyond anything encountered in most woodworking as they are string instrument specific. i had a firend who specialized in pianos and you should have seen his shop. when one is working on an old steinway, he would have to glue match the wooden pieces that made up the hammers inside as if he used a different glue it would/could change the tone. same for wood types and he was meticulous.

so to answer the question, while it may appear to be more woodworking than lutherie to make a solid body instrument, both processes are critical to the development of a quality instrument and thus should be accorded equal respect.

Your speaking like its two different things...

Woodworking is a part of instrument building, whether acoustic or electric.

Wood is generally the most common material that most musical instruments are built from... so it goes without saying, general woodworking is a big facet of instrument building, and plays a big role in electric instrument building.
You can have woodworking without luthiery, but its tougher the other way... even builders using graphite or metal, come back to wood. It's ingrained in the soul of most luthiers, acoustic or electric.

How far would one get, and what alternatives are there to electric tools? I have been thinking about this a lot, and figure there's other ways to do things in many of the steps included in the build of a bass, thoughts or experiences on this, anyone?

D.Don

I know that my bass building skills are no where near the quality of some of the builders in this forum, but I have been playing bass for a really long time, and designing and building custom hardwood furniture for a really long time. The one thing that sets building basses apart from fine quality furniture building, is that in building furniture you are essentially creating a piece of art. Like a bass, it can have a soul, because in the creation of the design, you have put yours, along with your blood some times, into it. But building basses differs in that you are creating a piece of art, that is used by other artists to create another art form. And in doiing so, the soul that you give it is used by those artists, who embrace it, and feed it, and conversly feed from it. What an amazing gift to give one another. The builder listening to the player, who tells him what he is looking for; what feel, what sound, what expression. And then the player creating something beautiful with the builders art. The expression of his soul through the lens of the builder. I don't think I have ever built a piece of furniture that could allow another artist to express human emotion.

From 17 to 25, I was a carpenter. I worked on houses, industrial structures, custom builds, fine and finishing carpentry, you name it. Although I was trained and skilled at my "craft", looking back, I can't say I was a "craftsman" (or craftsperson for you PC types).

I did however, work with many other carpenters who were absolutely craftsmen; they were the guys who made art out of anything they touched. Their crafty ways were definitely enhanced by experience, but not all of them were old and wise with countless hours logged though either. A few were young with natural talent and a way of working that was enviable to say the least.

I've also built a few basses and guitars over they years, so technically speaking, I can call myself a luthier. And I mean that in the literal sense of the word. I also called myself a carpenter, and I was (am, I guess). However, in both cases, I was/am not a "craftsman".

After I was injured and could not work anymore, I changed careers, and now I'm in psychology. Its funny that I absolutely call myself a craftsman now. This is my true calling and I didn't know until I arrived here. Relatedly, in my philosophical orientation, I see firsthand how humans use language to construct their shared reality and how key the use of language is to our understanding of our world, our experiences, connections and ourselves. This notion of "am I a luthier?" is an excellent exemplar. Who decides what and whom you are? I'll venture a guess that's its we ourselves.

So my opinion, yes, if you build a stringed instrument, you are technically a luthier. The question is, are you a craftsman? Does your practice, process and result equal this notion? Only you will know for yourself...