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Double Bass Notation question in blues: #V or bVI?

emor

emor

Guest
May 16, 2004
861
16
#1
Is one more correct than the other?

I was writing out a line to a blues tune, and in bar 10 it moves to the #V(bVI) for two beats and then back to the V7 for two beats.

At the blues jams I attend, when we have a progression like this, it is called out as having a #V; however, the line I was working on (in G) would have had to have been written with double sharps, had I stayed within the chord tones of the #V (D# Fx A# C#).

In a case like this would the more correct way be the one that is easier to read?
 
#5
JtheJazzMan said:
if youre talking about roman numeral degrees i would never call the substitute dominant of the V chord a #V chord. its really a SubV/V

i would just write Eb7 | D7 | Gmin or Gmaj

problem solved
Click to expand...

Thanks for the replies.
So just moving the V7 up a half step would be considered a substitute dominant?
I thought a substitution was built off the tritone. (I've been trying to wrap my head around that).
 
#7
Two options. Depends if you are doing just a plain Eb triad (or Ebmaj7 would function the same way), or an Eb7 (dominant quality).


If it is Eb7:
Secondary dominant.
(dominant of another chord within the key, besides tonic)

If you are in G, your dominant chord is D7.
Secondary dominant of that is A7.
Tritone sub of A7?
Eb7




If it is just Eb or Ebmaj7:
Modal mixture.

In G your vi chord is Emin.
In the parallel minor (Gmin), the VI chord is Eb.
You would just be borrowing from the minor mode of G for a second. Combining major and minor sounds from the same root...modal mixture.




Either way I'd call it a bVI(7?) in roman numeral analysis. The secondary dominant one can get messy, especially with the tritone sub. Normally secondary dominants are written V/V (or V/iii or wherever else you might be going...), but how messy is that to write: bII7/V.
Nah. bVI7 is legit.


Hope this helps.
 
#8
Sorry if I missed it, are we talking about a minor blues?

If so, bVI - V - i is typical (and the way I've always seen it written.

Take a look at, for instance, "Mr PC". Usually the bVI - V is in bars 9-10 of a 12 bar minor blues.

typical chords for bars 9-11 are:

bVI7 --> V(alt) --> i6/9

with chord-scales:

bvi Lydian Dominant --> V altered --> i melodic minor

Hope that helps,

Jeff
 
#9
If you're writing out actual notes in a arrangement for others to read, then I would advise staying away from double sharps. Just write the notes enharmonically so they are easy to read and you will look like you know what you're doing and everyone is happy.

There is a pretty low probability that an intoxicated horn player at a blues bar will sight read a line containing double sharps correctly. Just write G nat. and he'll have a chance.
 
#13
Plus how are you supposed to read after that many Old Style beers?

Not to put down the OP at all but I have played quite a few blues gigs in my day (being from Chicago and all). I have never seen a chart for a blues tune. I actually think there might be a city ordinance against the use of music stands in a blues club.
 
#18
Yes but...
emor said:
Is one more correct than the other?

I was writing out a line to a blues tune, and in bar 10 it moves to the #V(bVI) for two beats and then back to the V7 for two beats.

At the blues jams I attend, when we have a progression like this, it is called out as having a #V; however, the line I was working on (in G) would have had to have been written with double sharps, had I stayed within the chord tones of the #V (D# Fx A# C#).

In a case like this would the more correct way be the one that is easier to read?
Click to expand...

From the OP. It sounds like he is talking about straight up blues. Not Bird blues or big band. Maybe I'm wrong.
 
#19
fingers said:
Yes but...


From the OP. It sounds like he is talking about straight up blues. Not Bird blues or big band. Maybe I'm wrong.
Click to expand...

Yes and he is talking about how to write it out which is OK too.
That is why from my experience as a former big Band bass player I wanted to explain the use of Eb7 instead of D#7 is better because it is easier to read and write and makes more sense in an analysis of the chord progression,

No offense,

Sly
 
#20
emor said:
Thanks for the replies.
So just moving the V7 up a half step would be considered a substitute dominant?
I thought a substitution was built off the tritone. (I've been trying to wrap my head around that).
Click to expand...

when i say substitute dominant i mean you are subbing the chord that would normally approach your target chord by a P5th. Eg, an A7 would approach the D7 by a 5th, youre then substituting the tritone, or transposing that A7 chord by a tritone if you like. both A7 and Eb7 share the same tritone, C# and G for the A7, G and Db for the Eb7.

Its just a more elaborate II V I progression.
 

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