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Double Bass Notation question in blues: #V or bVI?
- Thread starter emor
- Start date
The roman numeral designation should decribe how the chord functions. You can't call it a secondary dominant unless it resolves to the chord it stands in dominant relation to. As stated above since it resolves downward you should use bVI and consider it an altered form of a vi chord.
To quote Trey from another thread just 'cause I think it's funny (but not necessarily important here):
1. Teenagers cannot have the Blues. They ain't fixn to die. Adults play the Blues. In Blues, adulthood means being old enough to get the electric chair if you shoot a man in Memphis.
2. Blues is not a matter of color. It is a matter of bad luck. Tiger Woods cannot have the blues. Sonny Liston could have the blues.
3. I don't care how tragic your life is or may have been, if you own a computer, you cannot have the Blues.
Wow, what an answer !!!
You don't even know me and the career I have and you are insulting me like this for helping someone out.
I feel sorry for you.
I was responding to a very specific question from the OP about writing something and it doesn't matter if it is Blues, Classical or whatever.
If someone post a question it should be fine to get a intelligent answer other then: Blues is Blues and shouldn't be written down on paper,
Sly
My point was not that blues shouldn't be written down... Though I mostly believe that ...but rather that questions like these arise when we attempt to explain music with western theory that did not evolve in said tradition.
I hear 'ya.
My point is just to clarify that in a musical context either in Blues,Jazz or Pop this situation is better written Eb7 then D#7 for reading and function purposes, and there is nothing wrong about my musical ability to know such thing. This knowledge doesn't make me a bad Blues player
Sly
OK Sly,
Since your from Montreal I'm going to assume that your first language is French. So just to let you know, some of us are having a little fun with this topic. A beau geste (sp) ? For my money you are correct. I'd call that chord a flat 6.
Typically in blues we don't work with sharps even if we are in a key with sharps. Based on your posts, I'm sure you are aware that in a basic blues the 3rd and 5th are altered downwards. In a jazz blues with lots of sub chords many, if not most people, play altered scales, pentatonic scales and diminished scales. Hey whatever works depending on whatever you hear.
As I said, I think some of us were having a bit of fun. Going for the cheap laugh!
P.S. Marc, I loved the comment about living in Chicago and playing blues. So many great blues artists out of Chicago!
This thread is giving me the blues.
What's the differance between a secondary substitute dominant and a substitute dominant? How does a substitute secondary dominant fit into this?
I know, Marc. I dunno about you, but when I get them blues, it's all I can do to play 'em, let alone tryin' to write 'em down. That would kinda ruin the vibe anyway doncha know.
This question arose when one of my jam buddies commented on a turnaround he heard me play.
We have both taken lessons and compare notes as to what we are covering in our respective lessons. I was writing out the last four bars (to email to him) and the question came up.
So, "real blues guys" would laugh at someone trying to understand what they're doing?
(BTW, the tune is "Everybody Wants to Go to Heaven" by Albert King--original in Ab. The passage in question can be heard at the beginning of the iTunes sample).
In functional harmony, a secondary dominant chord is a 7 chord which is not being played on the 5th degree of the key centre. For example, in the key of C, the only 7 chord that remains diatonic to the key signature is G7, In F the V7 is C7, in Eb it's Bb etc. However if you look at a lot of jazz standards you'll see a lot of 7 chords which are not diatonic to the key. These are called secondary dominants and extended dominants. The most common use of a secondary dominant is in the old reliable III-7-VI7-II-7-V7 turnaround. Technically when the VI chord is played as a 7 chord instead of a minor 7, it is not diatonic to the key, which makes it a secondary dominant. As a consequence of this, when you see a VI7 in a III-VI-II-V, it's not a VI7, it's a V7/II (because it is the dominant chord of the 2nd degree of the scale). I apologise I know my answer is long winded, I really hope it was helpful.
To answer your question though, this is why I call it a substitute secondary dominant:
If the tune is in G and you're playing an Eb7, then first and foremost, the most obvious thing about this chord is that it is a tritone substitution, for A7.
A tritone substitution is what the name says it is, A substitution of any dominant chord with another dominant chord which has a root a tritone away eg.
/D-7 G7/ Cmaj7/ can be substituted with /D-7 Db7/Cmaj7/
This because G7 and Db7 (or any other two dominant chords a tritone apart) share the same tritone on the same chord tones (3rd and 7th)
G7 Db7
1. G 1. Db
3. B 3. F
5. D 5. Ab
7. F 7. B
Now since the Eb7 is a substitute dominant for A7, the next thing to note is that A7 is not diatonic to the key of G, and so it is a secondary dominant. A7 would be the V of D, D is the 5th of G and therefore A7 is the V7 of the 5th degree or the V7/V. Which makes Eb7 the substitute secondary dominant or sub V7/V
Any clearer?
Anyway, the blues is a modal progression and can't really be explained by functional music theory unless you claim the key is changing every other bar.
To answer your question though, this is why I call it a substitute secondary dominant:
If the tune is in G and you're playing an Eb7, then first and foremost, the most obvious thing about this chord is that it is a tritone substitution, for A7.
A tritone substitution is what the name says it is, A substitution of any dominant chord with another dominant chord which has a root a tritone away eg.
/D-7 G7/ Cmaj7/ can be substituted with /D-7 Db7/Cmaj7/
This because G7 and Db7 (or any other two dominant chords a tritone apart) share the same tritone on the same chord tones (3rd and 7th)
G7 Db7
1. G 1. Db
3. B 3. F
5. D 5. Ab
7. F 7. B
Now since the Eb7 is a substitute dominant for A7, the next thing to note is that A7 is not diatonic to the key of G, and so it is a secondary dominant. A7 would be the V of D, D is the 5th of G and therefore A7 is the V7 of the 5th degree or the V7/V. Which makes Eb7 the substitute secondary dominant or sub V7/V
Any clearer?
Anyway, the blues is a modal progression and can't really be explained by functional music theory unless you claim the key is changing every other bar.
That did it fer me, Rev. I got them blues
SO damn bad after reading all that (let alone, understandin' it) that I'm goin' out. Don't try to talk me down....first, I thought of a nice relaxed out with a bottle of Valium....no way. I don't deserve that. 
I'm goin' with the razor blades.(I did think of the real SLOW out with a dose from a diseased hooker, but I can't handle that amount of time no more....) 
Thanks alot.
I know I've threatened before, but I REALLY mean it this time, boys. I really don't think they get them blues over there in Ireland with the same damn intensity that we get from the damn things over here.
And here is the answer to your question. Listen to it and learn it.
I'm not criticizing your wanting to understand and write it out. I'm just giving you my real world experience. When I have done blues gigs and I tune comes up that I don't know the guitar guy will usually just play a chorus up top and you just pick it up by listening. Most blues tunes have such basic changes you should just be able to hear them on one pass. If you can't you should work on your ear.
I guess I should apologize for my sillyness with you all. I mean no harm.
But just take a look at the above post...that's it. Period. It really is very simple and very basic meat and potatoes music. Nothing mysterious or confusing, like some of you are turning it into.
12 bars of simple music.
But just take a look at the above post...that's it. Period. It really is very simple and very basic meat and potatoes music. Nothing mysterious or confusing, like some of you are turning it into.
12 bars of simple music.
I've played a lot of blues jams over the last five years--I currently play at a couple a week; I've also played in a host band during this time. Within the genre, my ear has gotten pretty good. Nothing wrong with playing by ear, but as a student, I'd like a deeper understanding of what I am playing.
Here's the bit I had written out:
Looks fine I guess. Question though... why do you have pitches written but Roman numerals above? If I was writing pitches I'd write in the names of the chords.
If someone hands me a sheet of music I don't want to think any harder than necessary.
If someone hands me a sheet of music I don't want to think any harder than necessary.
