Advice for handling a big band

Id say he should cut half the band on the first day.

Well... on occasion I have subbed for a band that depending on the night runs from 12 to 16 pieces (2 or 3 guitars, 4 or 5 horns, bass, drums, aux percussion, keys, a lead singer and 3 backup singers). Here's what I can advise:

Item 1 - Make sure you have a bass rig up to the task. In the group I sub for I have gotten by with a single 4x10 cab but usually run two of them. Horns, drums and aux percussion can get really LOUD when they're all playing full-out and you will need to make sure you can hang with that.

Item 2 - Get used to not having your own monitor mix. With that many people in the band, there just aren't enough submixes to give everyone exactly what they want unless you're all doing Aviom in-ears or something like that. Hopefully you and the drummer are on good terms and can agree on a shared monitor mix cause that's probably how it will work out.

Item 3 - Set up as close to the drummer as possible, every time. It is really easy in big-band situations to get spread out too far. Stake out your spot next to the drummer and defend it. You will lock-in better and it looks better too.

Item 4 - Get used to tiny paychecks cuz that's a lot of ways to cut the pie. (but you already knew that going in.)

Item 5 - Get a good P.A. and a soundman that knows how to mix that many pieces. Otherwise you will wind up with a jumbled mess, sonically.

Overall - Big bands can be a lot of fun when everything is clicking. You'll want to watch that you don't overplay. At the same time, you'll probably be playing almost all the time (i.e., not sitting out large portions or even whole songs like the horn section or backup singers), and they're going to want and need you solid underneath. Simple and strong trumps busy and tentative on big-band gigs every time.

Regarding the group dynamics... with that many people there are probably always going to be little skirmishes but it's more likely going to be a "clique" thing (i.e., horn section vs. guitarists or singers vs. rhythm section or whatever), rather than one-on-one issues. Bands that big always function best with a clear leader and he/she doesn't have to necesarily be an alpha type but everyone does need to defer to that person when it comes down to the final decisions as well as onstage cues.

Good luck! If you've never done this before it will definitely make you a better player.

Kimpini said:

hello all,

My friend is forming a big 10-Piece (or maybe more) band and he has recruted me as the bass player. Well, I am not really nervous about anything musically, I am more nervous about all of the conflicts that will come along with all of the people in the band.



So, any advice for how my friend should go about organizing this, should every one have a say, or should there be one leader? Any other advice is very welcome!

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With that many people, you need 1 leader. Otherwise you will end up with " too many Chiefs, and not enough Indians". and before I get some wise acre comment about degrading native Americans, I am one, so I CAN!

He (or someone else responsible and good at organising) needs to be a leader.

I play in a big band with more members than yours, and it works because we all want to play some good music. I'm not saying that submission is a good thing and the players should be forced to play whatever they're given, but players with a passion + leader with direction = great band

xgator4u said:

With that many people, you need 1 leader. Otherwise you will end up with " too many Chiefs, and not enough Indians". and before I get some wise acre comment about degrading native Americans, I am one, so I CAN!

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+1, though i am not of native american heritage.

I don`t quite agree with Jaywa on his item 1 remark. I played in a band that consisted of two tenor saxes, 3 altos, a bass trombone, 3 regular trombones, 5 trumpets, a piano, a drummer, a singer, a guitar, and then myself on bass, and even through all of that I got by with just a 1x15 + horn Roland amp. Definantly make sure your rig can handle the gig, but I think a 4x10(let alone two) is overkill for that kind of gig.

Check out the link in my sig. below. There's a ton of info on band management available.
Good luck. Let us know how it goes.

In order to make a big band work, you have to get players who want to work in that kind of environment. It means that they leave their egos at home, and actually want a band to have a bandleader. Big-bands are a blast.

The "democratic" approach, of working out every note of every measure by consensus, doesn't work with a big band.

jmattbassplaya said:

I don`t quite agree with Jaywa on his item 1 remark. I played in a band that consisted of two tenor saxes, 3 altos, a bass trombone, 3 regular trombones, 5 trumpets, a piano, a drummer, a singer, a guitar, and then myself on bass, and even through all of that I got by with just a 1x15 + horn Roland amp. Definantly make sure your rig can handle the gig, but I think a 4x10(let alone two) is overkill for that kind of gig.

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Just to clarify... the big band I sub for is pretty dramatically underpowered on P.A. and especially subs. On most of their gigs I would say the bass rig is carrying the room to the tune of at least 70% and this is generally in banquet hall type venues averaging 300-500 capacity. In fact, I showed up to one of their gigs with just my LowDown 150 combo and afterward their sound guy said, "Don't bring that little thing to these gigs anymore. I couldn't get you loud enough." And for a monitor I (sometimes) get a little wedge with like an 8-inch driver that carries the vocals and not much else. So in this particular band I depend on my stage rig a lot.

YMMV of course and I hope the OP is in a little better shape with P.A. and monitors than I am. (Hence Item #5 in my first post.)

I'd agree with jawa on the rig size (or be inclined that way). In my experience it's when you have a large variety of instruments, but not a large number of each, that means you need to pack the biggest punch. It is in these situations that each part is independant and particularly important, meaning that they are all miked individually, leading each to be made pretty loud, and the overall sound being fairly massive.

I assume your band (jmatt) is a jazz band/funk orchestra or similar, in which case each instrument doesn't want to be miked too heavily (horns especially) as they are more of a combined sound, needing more subtle mixing. I'm guessing that horns are only individually loud and in your face during solos, whilst with maybe a 3 horn funk section, each horn is almost at solo level alot of the time in most cases as they are either all palying a main lick, or all takign important harmony parts.

Obviously your rig size depends on the style, venue etc. but this is just my opinion.

Kimpini said:

One more quick question, should I personally invest in a better rig or should the band invest in a good PA system?

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Great question. Ideally, both. But if you could only have one I go with the good P.A., i.e., real subwoofers and plenty of wattage, and a legit monitoring system whether that be wedges or in-ears. If that works out, then you won't have spent a lot of your own money on a bigger rig that might be good for the big-band gigs but would be overkill in other situations.

Interestingly enough, the decisions this new band makes (or not) on P.A. could give you a clue on the project's long-term viability. If people aren't willing to buy-in (literally and figuratively) on something essential like that, then the project may not have a real long shelf life. In which case you may still need to upgrade your personal rig to handle the gigs and hope the band lasts long enough for you to recoup your investment.

fdeck said:

In order to make a big band work, you have to get players who want to work in that kind of environment. It means that they leave their egos at home, and actually want a band to have a bandleader. Big-bands are a blast.

The "democratic" approach, of working out every note of every measure by consensus, doesn't work with a big band.

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This is very well said. The big band I sub for is very successful around here and their gigs are always a lot of fun. Lots of private/corporate gigs although those have scaled back lately with the economy. In that outfit there is one leader who does all the crowd talk, decides when we start and stop sets, calls the tunes, gives the cues and cuts the checks. But beyond that, the sections have a lot of freedom. There's a trombone player who is the de facto horn section leader and he chooses their arrangements and manages those guys during the gig. I'm part of the rhythm section which includes a drummer, an aux player and a keyboardist -- all very experienced and accomplished -- and we pretty much do our own thing too without ever getting too far outside what is needed to support the larger group and meet the parameters of the song. We never practice, mostly cause the two main people in the band are doctors and all of us rhythm section players are also in 2 or 3 other bands at the same time. Everyone has a "book" and we are expected to use it on stage and nail down our parts on our own time.

We play everything from old Motown and funk to Chicago tunes to Bon Jovi and the Eagles during the course of a night and it is a blast. I wish they were busier right now cause I'm kind of pining to gig with them again.

fdeck said:

In order to make a big band work, you have to get players who want to work in that kind of environment. It means that they leave their egos at home, and actually want a band to have a bandleader. Big-bands are a blast.

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^That.

Most people that have an interest in that kind of production, know how to do it already without B.S.

The problems arise when you take 9 guys from 3 different 3 peice bands and try to get them to not play all over everything or to just not be a spaz in general.

Big bands are a blast.

Having a good leader works/helps. Everyone has to do their homework. Have a set of rules. (no doodling, pickup after yourself, etc) Being flexable with your time/schedule will be important.

Kimpini said:

^ Thanks I would rather not have to buy a new rig.

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What's your current rig?

What do already have in your current P.A. setup?

If the "band" is going to own the P.A., I suggest a contract be written defining how it will all work containing such things as:
1) guys leaving/joining the band
2) transporting the P.A.
3) payment/reimb. for transportation
4) load in, load out
5) partial ownership of everything or full ownership of specific pieces of the P.A.
6) paying for maintenance (banking part of each gig: who has access to the account?)
7) using the P.A. for other projects
8) using pieces of the P.A for other projects
9) payment for a sound person to run the P.A.
10) who decides on paying for upgrades
11) insurance
12) where will the P.A. be kept between gigs.
13) anything else you can think of.